Obama And His Birth Certificate Are About To Make History
July 16, 2009 · carl · Print This Article
OK, I confess, the title is a bit misleading.
It should read Obama And His Lack Of A Birth Certificate Is About To Make History.
Yesterday, World Net Daily broke the story of Army Major Stefan Cook, who argued that he should not have to deploy to Afghanistan because President Obama has not proven that he is a natural-born citizen, therefore he is unable to serve as Commander-In-Chief.
This is something that will receive little, if any, coverage from the mainstream media.
However, the fact that the U.S. Army revoked the orders of a soldier about to be sent overseas based wholly upon such a claim is unprecedented.
This controversy over Obama’s failure to produce a valid birth certificate has been an ongoing saga.
And all calls for him to do so have either been belittled or ignored by the White House.
Which may lead some folks to suspect that the reason he doesn’t simply produce the blasted thing and put this story to rest once and for all is because he doesn’t have one!
About the only attention we have seen regarding this issue was the presentation of a “Certification Of Live Birth” supposedly issued by the State of Hawaii.
This proves less than nothing, as first, to look at it you would think that a 12-year old made it on their home computer, and secondly is the fact that a child does not have to be born in Hawaii in order for the state to issue such a document to the child’s parents.
Even if this document is legitimate, it is a far cry from an actual birth certificate, and it surely is not proof of where Obama was actually born.
However , there are literally thousands of articles and opinions floating around about Obama’s birth certificate, or lack therof, and I don’t want to bore you with re-visiting the same stories.
Rather, I would like to expound on my claim that Obama’s lack of a birth certificate will make history.
Consider the following:
If indeed it is proven that Obama is not a natural born U.S. citizen, and therefore is unable to serve as President, he will not be remembered as America’s first black President, rather history will remember him as the man who was the cause of the biggest Constitutional crisis this country has ever seen!
The question will be raised of what will happen to other troops deployed by Obama, and the troops already serving under orders from an ineligible commander in chief.
Every piece of legislation that Obama has signed since taking office would now be considered under law to be null and void.
Imagine what this would mean to the stock market, financial institutions, the auto industry, as well as every other facet of the American economy.
Not to mention, the people who already accuse the president’s critics of being racists will no doubt try to use this as their proof and stoke racial tensions to the point of riot.
Every appointment he has made, regardless if it was an appointment as a “Czar’, or a Cabinet-level position, would have to be overturned, and it would become the duty of the Vice-President to re-fill those positions.
Which leads to perhaps the most intriguing scenario of all.
The Constitution states that if the President is unable to serve, the Vice-President shall assume the duties of the office.
However, if the man who chose you to be his running mate was found to have been elected to the office in violation of Constitutional law, where does that leave you Mr. Biden?
After all, we (well, some of you poor misguided individuals) voted for the two of you as a team running on the same ticket.
So if it is found that the man who picked you to be his running mate did so in direct violation of federal law, doesn’t it follow that you were also elected to the Vice-Presidency under false pretenses?
Barack Obama.
CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN!
When the U.S. military accepts the claim of a soldier that the man posing as Commander-In-Chief has failed to produce his eligibility to hold that title, we may be on the verge of seeing change beyond belief.
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It is amazing the measures that right wing nuts will go to. If there was merit to this, one would think that at least on court will find it rather than dismiss the case. Not even SCOTUS (which cleared the way for Bush to become president) finds merit in it to even hear the case. Are you saying that the entire court system is in the tank for him?
Terrant, if this didn’t have any merit don’t you think the Army would tell Major Cook that his deployment would stand in spite of his challenge? The Army didn’t even fight it, they simply withdrew his deployment. That is a big deal, and that is the story.
As for the court system, you should probably learn how it works. The story about the birth certificate gained serious attention when it was raised by a prominent DEMOCRAT lawyer who challenged Obama’s eligibility to become president. His suit was thrown out by a federal judge, not because there was no basis for the claim, but because the judge said that “[ordinary citizens] do not have standing to bring the sort of challenge that Plaintiff attempts to bring.” http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=79086
It never reached the level of the Supreme Court even though attorney Berg tried to get it there himself by asking the court to impose an injunction on vote counting until Obama produced his birth certificate. (Btw, the SCOTUS merely upheld proper laws that Al Gore was attempting to circumvent in order to steal the presidency. Gore was a pioneer for the type of fraud that got the other Al “Frankenstein” into the Senate).
Just one more question for you. If there was no merit to this, then WHERE IS HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE?? Why won’t Obama and the governor of Hawaii simply make it available to quite all the rumors?
Terrant , quite simply… YES. No one who can be steamrolled by obama and co is “in the tank” at this point. Acitivist judges have become the norm, I know because the judges here in Mass totally disregard the say of the people regularly. [
As far as the birth cert is concerned, either he can’t produce the real long form certificate OR he thinks he’s not answerable to the people.
There is NO WAY the obamabots in office will allow themselves to be faced in that way so they will go to the ends of the earth to make sure the truth doesn’t come out….that much I’m sure of.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=104044
Also in Ohio, there was the Greenberg v. Brunner case which ended when the judge threatened to assess all case costs against the plaintiff.
The pressure is ON
Although Obama officials have told WND all such allegations are “garbage,” here is a partial listing and status update for some of the cases over Obama’s eligibility:
New Jersey attorney Mario Apuzzo has filed a case on behalf of Charles Kerchner and others alleging Congress didn’t properly ascertain that Obama is qualified to hold the office of president.
Pennsylvania Democrat Philip Berg has three cases pending, including Berg vs. Obama in the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, a separate Berg vs. Obama case alleging he wasn’t qualified even to be U.S. senator and Hollister vs. Soetoro a/k/a Obama, (now dismissed) brought on behalf of a retired military member who could be facing recall to active duty by Obama.
Leo Donofrio of New Jersey filed a lawsuit claiming Obama’s dual citizenship disqualified him from serving as president. His case was considered in conference by the U.S. Supreme Court but denied a full hearing.
Cort Wrotnowski filed suit against Connecticut’s secretary of state, making a similar argument to Donofrio. His case was considered in conference by the U.S. Supreme Court, but was denied a full hearing.
Former presidential candidate Alan Keyes headlines a list of people filing a suit in California, in a case handled by the United States Justice Foundation, that asks the secretary of state to refuse to allow the state’s 55 Electoral College votes to be cast in the 2008 presidential election until Obama verifies his eligibility to hold the office. The case is pending, and lawyers are seeking the public’s support.
Chicago lawyer Andy Martin sought legal action requiring Hawaii Gov. Linda Lingle to release Obama’s vital statistics record. The case was dismissed by Hawaii Circuit Court Judge Bert Ayabe.
Lt. Col. Donald Sullivan sought a temporary restraining order to stop the Electoral College vote in North Carolina until Barack Obama’s eligibility could be confirmed, alleging doubt about Obama’s citizenship. His case was denied.
In Ohio, David M. Neal sued to force the secretary of state to request documents from the Federal Elections Commission, the Democratic National Committee, the Ohio Democratic Party and Obama to show the presidential candidate was born in Hawaii. The case was denied.
In Washington state, Steven Marquis sued the secretary of state seeking a determination on Obama’s citizenship. The case was denied.
In Georgia, Rev. Tom Terry asked the state Supreme Court to authenticate Obama’s birth certificate. His request for an injunction against Georgia’s secretary of state was denied by Georgia Superior Court Judge Jerry W. Baxter.
California attorney Orly Taitz has brought a case, Lightfoot vs. Bowen, on behalf of Gail Lightfoot, the vice presidential candidate on the ballot with Ron Paul, four electors and two registered voters. She also has brought forward several other cases and has conducted several public campaigns to generate awareness of the issue.
In Texas, Darrel Hunter vs. Obama later was dismissed.
In Ohio, Gordon Stamper vs. U.S. later was dismissed.
In Texas, Brockhausen vs. Andrade.
In Washington, L. Charles Cohen vs. Obama.
In Hawaii, Keyes vs. Lingle, dismissed.
In addition, other cases cited on the RightSideofLife blog as raising questions about Obama’s eligibility include:
In Texas, Darrel Hunter vs. Obama later was dismissed.
In Ohio, Gordon Stamper vs. U.S. later was dismissed.
In Texas, Brockhausen vs. Andrade.
In Washington, L. Charles Cohen vs. Obama.
Thank you Amy!!
And thanks for the link to the story on the Army forcing out Maj. Cook because of his challenge to the president. World Net Daily has been all over this issue.
There is also this bill before Congress: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-1503
Turns out Major Cook actually volunteered to go to Afghanistan back in May. Obama was president in May, yet Major Cook volunteered to go to Afghanistan despite that. He led the Army to believe that he really wanted to go to Afghanistan. Then he sued to stop it.
Re: “secondly is the fact that a child does not have to be born in Hawaii in order for the state to issue such a document to the child’s parents.”
This is not true in two ways. First, at the time that Obama was born, in 1961, Hawaii did not have this capability. Only persons born in Hawaii were registered in Hawaii at that time. The capability of registering foreign births to parents who had lived in Hawaii a year before the birth, was not created until the change of the law in 1982.
Thus the original birth certificate in Obama’s file cannot be a foreign birth certificate.
A second reason it is not true is that even today, when a child is born outside of Hawaii, the document cannot lie about the place of birth. So, if the parents are eligible due to their residence in Hawaii and the child was born in, say, New Jersey or Mexico, they can apply for an receive a Hawaii certification of birth, but the document will say: “Hawaii certification of Birth, Location of Birth: New Jersey (or Mexico)”
Obama’s certification says on it that he was born in Honolulu, Hawaii.
And when it says on it “born in Hawaii,” the Hawaii Certification of Live Birth is accepted as proof of birth in the USA by the US State Department and the US Military.
I agree we can not debate the birth certificate here, or anywhere. It has become a circle jerk.
As to what happens if he is found ineligible the 20th amendment kicks in. And there is where we will face an incredible constitutional crisis.
Here is the pertinent paragraph;
“Section 3. If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.”
Now here is where it gets real sticky. Somewhere along the way the parties shifted to a president/vp ticket. Usually the people voted for president and vp separately but they now vote for one ticket. Now normally congress would revert to the next highest vote getter but that is not the next candidate in line it is the next ticket and that would be McCain Palin. But it is my opinion that McCain is also ineligible because he is not a natural born citizen either.
Now I know someone will point out that the Senate passed a resolution stating McCain was eligible and if he won it would probably have worked. But if we the people toss Obama for not being a NBC then I think the hammer from the other side would come done on McCain. My source for that tid bit can be seen hereWhy Senator John McCain Cannot Be President: Eleven Months and a Hundred Yards Short of Citizenship
Have fun with this one….
Tarrent-its not right wingers ,I critize bush for north american union (common currency with mexico ,canada and America) and erasing the boarders completally.obama is allowing this to go thru.but back to the subject:obamas so called birth certificate was computer generated.and was not signed by a doctor.
“If there was no merit to this, then WHERE IS HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE?? Why won’t Obama and the governor of Hawaii simply make it available to quite all the rumors?”
To be honest, I do not know. I find that baffling; just as baffling as Palin’s lack of a reason for quitting. I strongly suspect both of their reasons are similar.
I bring up SCOTUS because they are the ones who would rule him invalid in any scenario. I used Bush vs. Gore as an example not because I disagreed with the ruling but because of their decision to get involved in what really was Florida’s problem. That is what I am calling judicial activism. My point is that if SCOTUS chose to get involved with that controversy but not this one, there wasn’t much merit to the case. To me, the fact that Obama might not qualify should be more of constitutional issue than a state being unable to decide on how to divvy its votes.
@smrstrauss
For all we know it is possible Maj. Cook did this to make a point and it is possible that he didn’t. The real issue is why the army would simply rescind the deployment because of Cook’s challenge without giving any other reason. You could see why this seems like the Army is conceding the point, can’t you?
Obama’s certificate of live birth is not the same as a real Hawaiian birth certificate. This page explains the difference and links to the relevant state statute: http://peoplespassions.org/peoplesvoice/BirthCerts/Archive/Birth_Certificate.htm
@Terrant
You seem obsessed with Bush and Palin. Neither of them have anything to do with this story but you are trying to draw parallels and it doesn’t make sense. There may be a way for the Supreme Court to inject itself into the issue, but if that option does exist they do not seem in a hurry to execute it.
The case should actually rise to the level of the Supreme Court naturally as intended through the appeals process, but lower courts have thrown the most serious cases out because they say that ordinary citizens do not have the standing to make such a challenge. The judges just don’t seem to have the courage to hear the case and members of Congress don’t have the courage to push it. This has been enough to quiet the issue until now with the case of Maj. Cook.
Did you consider that the Military high command may in fact want have there own their own agenda and this action may play right into their planes?
AMENDED DOCUMENT filed by Plaintiff Alan Keyes PhD. (Taitz, Orly)
Quote……..
22. Plaintiffs ask this Court to declare and adjudge that the framers of the constitution used, and that this Court must therefore apply in this case of first impression, the definition of the Natural Born Citizen contained in “The Law of Nations or, Principles of the Law of Nature, applied to the Conduct and Affairs of Nations and Sovereigns” by the Swiss philosopher and jurist Emmerich De Vattel:
“…natural born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owns to its own preservation: and it is presumed, as a matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see, whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for if he is born there of a foreigner, it will only be the place of his birth, and not his country”.
http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/vattel/:
The Law of Nations or the Principles of Natural Law (1758)
23. This Court should apply the De Vattel definition used by the framers of the constitution, defining “Natural Born Citizen” for following reasons:
24. De Vattel’s treatise existed at the time of the creation of the Constitution, as it was published in 1757 and was readily available to the framers
25. Emmerich de Vattel’s was widely quoted by the framers of the constitution, for example, by Hamilton, Jay, and Madison “Publius” in the Federalist Papers.
26. His book provides an exact and contemporaneous definition for the term used “Natural Born Citizen”
27. De Vattel fully corresponds to the well-known statements by the framers of the Constitution
28. The Vattel definition was used as a basis for the Senate resolution 511 of 2008, when Senator McCain was found to be a Natural Born Citizen, based on the fact that he was born in the zone of the Panama canal, US territory at a time and both of his parents were US citizens.
29. Apparently during the Constitutional Convention, John Jay wrote on July 25, 1787 to George Washington:
“Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise or reasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of foreigners into the administration of National government; and to declare expressly that the commander in chief of the American Army shall not be given to, nor devolve on any but a natural born citizen”
30. In explaining the meaning of Natural Born Citizen, a principal framer of the 14th amendment, which redefined citizenship under the Constitution, John Armor Bingham explained that the phrase referred to “every human being born in the jurisdiction of the United States to parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty”. (Emphasis added).
End quote…………….
It is my belief that Hillary had EVERY thing to do with McCain’s eligibility being questioned,,..I believe she already knew he was, based on BOTH of his parents being citizens but I also believe she KNEW that obama wasn’t and that she was setting up the playing field to get a home advandage by getting something in writing, established in advance by the congress….
I also believe the only reason she did not call him on it was because she and all of the other Dems.(all of who knew about obama’s eligibilty being questioned) wanted so badly to win all three houses, that they would rather help obama to win because he was more popular and then Hillary could later persuade him the give her the job she now holds…and that would also explain why obama is letting the congress write all of the major bills that are full of wasetful pet pork projects as a favor for all his buddies helping him get elected…wink …wink….As long as they help him pass his radical agenda, he’ll help them pass theirs….
They want to keep the power soo bad that they are willing to sacrifice the entire stability and existence of this free nation and all of ours and our children’s futures…they don’t give a hoot about anyone but themselves…
smrstrauss is lying. A child born outside of Hawai’i could absolutely obtain a “Certification” of Live Birth. Further, Barry’s vault birth record could, and most probably does, contain amending documents. The record would indicate when the amendment(s) were made, and what infromation was amended. The online Certification of Live Birth could reflect information from the amendment(s). A clue is the use of “African” as the father’s race. His original document would not display the word “African” as race identification. His vault birth record has been amended, but the original document is still part of the archive. Ms Lingle’s cryptic statement is a give away. They would not verify any of the information from the online Certification of Live Birth. They can’t. They could only state that an archived record exists. Though they careful worded the statement to mislead.
They claim privacy constraints for not confirming the information provided to the public on the Certification of Live Birth reflects the information on the original record. Obama could have authorized the Department of Health Director and Governor Lingle to confirm the pertinent fields of information (Location Of Birth, Parents Names, Date Of Birth) in the original record reflect the information presented on the Certification of Live Birth posted online. But he couldn’t do this of course. He instead retains high-priced D.C. and California law firms to fight release of the original documents.
Nice discussion going on here! It’s refreshing to read ideas from both sides instead of dodging flames.
Resisting the temptation to jump in on many of these points, I thought I would add the following:
1. Those in power are not likely to give it up without a serious fight.
2. While the fight is going on, a window of opportunity opens for enemies of the countries the US is currently backing up (Taiwan, S. Korea, Israel, etc.).
It appears interesting times are ahead!
This is not going to go away and should be settled immediately. Not only for domestic implications, but Obama is also making treaties with other countries. Even if O is eligible, the question makes the U.S. vulnerable: Obama makes a treaty with Iran: we’ll give you x,y,z in return for you stopping your nuke program. Iran agrees, we give them x,y,z. Iran says, “we no longer honor this treaty by a president that is called illegitimate by his own people.” If Americans question his presidency, why would other countries honor his word?
[...] just did a story bringing to light how the U.S. Army revoked the orders of a Major scheduled to deploy to Afghanistan after he filed a lawsuit claiming that the deployment would be illegal due to the fact that [...]
I’m not sure why you say that I am obsessed with Bush or Palin. In this thread, I’m not even talking about Bush. I’m talking about SCOTUS and its role in a case involving Bush. As for Palin, I chose her because her resignation baffles me and it is recent. I could have went with the Clintons; they could have come clean on Whitewater. I could have went with Sanford but that mystery was already solved. He could have saved himself a lot of grief if he had told someone where was going (but not why).
If you don’t want to see the writing on the wall after SCOTUS rejected two challenges, that is your prerogative. Since I know I’m being poo-pooed for having a contrary point of view, I’ll leave saying that I agree with Boortz on this subject: “Let’s move on to more important things.”
It would have been best if this whole thing — eligibility of those whose names were offered as president –were all verified PRIOR to the election. From what I understand, several of them were questionable. Comm. party – born in S. America; McCain, parents on base but maybe not married, or maybe born off-base in Panama–Obama & Hillary got a resolution passed to say he was eligible (proof he was the candidate “chosen” for the people because they knew they could beat him); and finally Obama/Soetoro., possibly born in Kenya as his grandmother and many people in Africa seem to believe, including the Mombassan ambassador. Of course, both Granny and the Ambassador have been quieted and kept from the media and investigators now. There was a parliament in Mombassa that even formally recognized him as a citizen. Google it if you don’t believe me.
As the article states, that certificate he showed was insufficient. He himself stated on his website during the campaign that he had dual citizenship as his father was a British subject. And of course, neither Obama or his Indonesian sister Maya Soetoro (whose certificate looks just like his) can figure out which hospital to settle on–they’ve both said Queens and Kapi’olani, depending on when you ask them. Doesn’t matter, his father was not a US citizen, therefore he can NOT be natural-born. After that Obama/Soetoro WAS a non-US citizen after being adopted in Indonesia (proven by the only real document we’ve even seen, an old school document listing him as Muslim and Indonesian citizen named Barry Soetoro and statements by a teacher and former classmates); therefore, INELIGIBLE.
If you disagree, show me where he has come back in, swearing allegience to THIS country. Show me a US passport and tell me how he was able to travel within Pakistan during wartime and no travel allowed there by Americans. Tell me why he states to Indonesians that he is a “homeboy” (in their language, of course.) I could go on and on.
Oh yes, and he swore to uphold the Constitution. WHOSE Constitution? Not the one belonging to the USA! He definitely does not uphold ours.
So, if Obama is ineligible and Biden is ineligible….take the scenario out to the most extreme possiblity…..Obama is removed, Biden is removed…the country is in total chaos and by law the next in line for the presidency is Nancy Pelosi. OMG we are totally screwed. She would be worse than Obama!!!!! We’re surrounded!
Now, rather than acting transparent and producing proof of eligibility, some want to question McCain’s eligibility.
U.S.bases in foreign countries are considered American soil. Stop pulling the leftist habit of deflecting the subject.
President Obama released a COLB – a prima facie document of the record of his birth. It clearly says he was born in Hawaii in August of 1961. It’s stamped and certified by the state of Hawaii. They are not in the business of lying. As you can read here on Politifact, too much is being made of the difference between a COLB and the original birth certificate.
Read here:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2009/jul/01/obamas-birth-certificate-final-chapter-time-we-mea/
The only one who claims the certificate is a forgery is an internet poster who won’t use his real name, won’t list credentials, and says he’s a doctor but won’t tell where he acquired his degree. He calls himself “Polarik” on the internet. Those who know better call him a phony.
So what’s the problem? The President has proved he was born in Hawaii.
Why is no one talking about how his father was at the time of his birth a basic citizen of England due to the affiliation of his country and Britian? And based on the Constitution it was worded and explained that the Naturalized Citizens were those born to parents who each were citizens. It was to keep people from finding themselves beholden to the crown of their parents.
And as for McCain – the reason for his citizenship is due to the understanding of our troops stationed overseas. Even if a couple (who are citizens of the US) have a child who is born overseas they are eligible to have that child listed as American.
The Ineligible-Affirmative-Action-Usurper-in-Chief has the burden of proof the demonstrate that he is eligible to occupy the Office of President, not the other way round.
Until he has established himself as eligible, then he will continue to be, in fact, the Ineligible-Affirmative-Action-Usurper-in-Chief.
Biden for President. Remove the usurper.
The military revoked his orders because after his orders are revoked then he has no standing to demand proof from Obama.
And in an amazing coincidence, today after his orders were revoked Monday, the judge thru the case out of court citing that the Major no longer has standing in the issue.
Strange behavior from a man whom the ObaMO-RONs put so much faith in? Perhaps they can explain why Obama has spent 800K on protecting this simple document? Pay $15 vs $800K? How many “poor” people could the “messiah” have helped with $800K? Heck, he could have helped his half-brother in that Kenyan slum with $800K?
I think it is because his bat-crazy mother had no idea whom the father was or it was a family member. Wasn’t Obama’s mentor, Frank Marshall Davis convicted of pedophilia?
Everyone is missing the point!
It’s terrible, poor, goofy leadership, on Obama’s part, to leave this question hanging over an entire nation. I don’t know how anybody can support him on this issue, unless they are not a citizen?
The fact is that Obama is appearing to be a terrible, poor and goofy leader of this nation by not presenting evidence so we can lay these questions down and move on to the important things.
Perhaps when Major Cook volunteered to go overseas he was unaware of the birth certificate issue. Then he learned about the issue, and then recieved the orders.
Jack
Some have suggested that Major Cook may have lacked the courage to deploy.
I, on the other hand think he did what his heart told him was the right thing to do.
Paul
I don’t think Obama cares what the public thinks about this issue.
I also don’t think he has the proof he would need to put it to rest.
Has it ever occurred to any of you that he could have been born in Hawaii, but is using a “Certificate of Live Birth” instead of the long form birth certificate to set precedent for the certificate of live birth to be used as a valid document to prove ones citizenship?
As you all know. The left has been desperately looking for a way to grant amnesty to the illegals here. It would be political suicide to pass legislation doing so. Since literally anyone, regardless of birthplace can obtain one of these certificates. This could well be the end to their immigration problem and will usher in hoards of new Democrat voters in the future….
Just something to think about.
LogicalSC
His mother was unique to say the least.
The man he claims was his father was a drunk.
And the Obamanites are incapable of explaining anything that doesn’t agree with the fearless leaders doctrine.
I agree that we must seek to prove place of birth. There was so much fraud committed in this campaign by the Democrats that I personally am positive that Obama was not a US citizen.
RationalGeezer
You’re right, until he can prove his eligibilty for office, doubts will remain.
However, as we pointed out in the article, Biden may be illegitimate also.
Want to think about something really scary?
Consider who would be next in line after Biden.
Now that the Democrats have a super majority in Congress, they are able to write a law that redefines a natural-born citizen. In addition, they could make it specific to one person, or a whole range of persons. It is my opinion, a law of this nature could be written ex post facto or retroactive that would apply to persons already here. Make no mistake about it, the Democrats would do this to save their President and it would be legal.
CommonSense:
THANK GOD!
Someone who gets it!
And knows what they are talkin about.
Please come back and visit us again.
Miller:
I hate to break this to you, but the article you cite doesn’t prove anything.
You may want to check our latest posting if you can stand a dose of reality.
schnitz:
That’s one of the tings we love about leftists.
Whenever they see someting that doesn’t agree with their viewpoint, they try and re-focus the topic.
And then they get their facts wrong on top of it.
If they only had a brain………..
To Boortz, there is NOTHING more important than the possibility that we have in the White House a fraud! He knows whether he should be there. All he has to do is produce the birth certificate. He has spent over a million keeping it hidden! Why? If he has nothing to hide, and that birth certificate proves his legitimacy then this issue would be laid to rest. It has now taken on a life of it’s own and we the people will not rest until we know whether the man who is destroying our economy, our defenses, our health care system, sending our taxes through the roof, is legitimate.
The left will rot in hell before they are accountable for anything.
Just like little children caught in the act they will lie till the end.All you lefties out there just cant stand to ever be wrong. Your hippie
parents taught you well about accountability.NOT! Thats why you created a mile-wide chasm between what is right and wrong.
Eileen:
Unless the American public statrs to stand up and take notice real soon, not only on this subject but on many others, you’re right. we are in real trouble.
Pelosi as POTUS?
That’s scarier than being stuck standing behind Rosie O’Donnell at an all-you-can-eat buffet.
SCBikerChick:
You make some excellent points.
However, we both know that hell will freeze over before we see a rational response to the questions you have raised.
@Terrant
You are obviously desperate to deflect the attention to some other subject. This is a very unique situation and nothing you listed from Bush to Palin to the Clintons or Sanford is relevant. This issue has not yet reached the SC in a conventional way. If they really wanted to get involved, yes, I believe they probably could figure out a way. While you think they don’t do it because the case does not have enough merit, I disagree. I believe there is a lot more going on behind the scenes than we may ever know about. I disagree with you and Boortz, but don’t let that stop you from coming back and commenting.
@Miller
Yeah, keep listing links to politifact.com. That will convince us. Maybe you should add a couple links from HuffPo while you’re at it.
You have to go no further than the comments for this post to see the list of cases brought up about this issue and you’ll also find out why Obama did not prove anything with his certificate from Hawaii. So I guess its back to the drawing board for you…
Carl,
You got it right on. I noticed several posters who dismiss the whole issue and then jump on to the Bush bashing band wagon. News flash: Obama is in office now. Until the question of his birth certificate is answered, he is illegitimately sitting in the White House. And the day it is finally exposed that he is not a natural born American, the democrats are going to have a lot of egg to wipe off their faces.
Folks,
You only need to know ONE fact to know Soetoro is NOT a “NATURAL BORN” citizen. Only ONE thing.
Soetoro’s father was a goat herder and British citizen from Kenya.
There is no American father.
Chase the birth records ,if you wish, but it’s fools work.
Obama: British born, NOT NATURAL BORN!!
This is not a question that affects people of one political party or the other. It is a constitutional question that touches all Americans.
All Ameircans are upset that our elected officials have been ignoring the constitutional rights of Americans and exceeding the constitutional limitations of their power. Bush and the Republicans did it in a big way and Democrats with Obama are no different. If the people permit them to violate the constitution, we have it’s protections no longer! Without the rule of law, we are subject to the third world level abuse of power.
Out of respect for all Americans and the rule of law, Obama and the Democrats should produce the necessary documents proving that they have not violated the constitution by putting up a President who is constitutionally unqualifed for election and in office!
If we let them divide and conquer us on these constitutional issues the abuse of power, will only get worse. So please! Stop playing politics with the rule of law. It is what it is for everyone! No one is to be above the rule of law in the United States. Not George Bush. Not Barack Obama! Not Democrats. Not Republicans!
For you that have served in the armed forces. Do you remember the oath you swore? There’s that little part about “Defending the Constitution” Against ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic…..
Also, there’s that other little part.. ” I will follow the LEGAL orders of those officers appointed over me.”
Just maybe the good Major is simply taking his oath seriously??
Could it be possible that he is the only service member to actually be following the laws as per the Uniform Code of Military Justice?
Terrant:
If you have an obsession with Bush or Palin is not the point.
The point is that all of you blind followers of Obama are unable to focus on anything critical of him without going off-topic and whining that “This Republican did This, and that Republican did that.”
We aren’t discussing Bush, Palin, or Sponge Bob Square Pants.
Try addressing an issue without dragging something or someone else along in an attept to make your point.
Or is that hoping for too much?
i don’t know if liberals are just plain stupid and in denial, or if they are so brainwashed that they just don’t believe the truth. In any event, iyt is easy to make money from liberals as they are all suckers.
Re: “The real issue is why the army would simply rescind the deployment because of Cook’s challenge without giving any other reason. You could see why this seems like the Army is conceding the point, can’t you?
According to one report I read, the Army said that because he volunteered he had the right to rescind the offer without being penalized.
Re: “if this didn’t have any merit don’t you think the Army would tell Major Cook that his deployment would stand in spite of his challenge?”
As I understand it, Cook volunteered to go to Afghanistan. The reports that I read said that because he volunteered, he had the right to rescind that action without penalty.
Just add another twist to this. Obama is one of the most arrogant punks I have ever seen. He has sort of a praetorian guard – Secret Service, FBI, BATF, etc who are pledged to protect him. If in fact it comes out that he is not qualified, the punk WILL NOT step down. He has an army of “cannon fodder” that will protest and fight to keep him in. And you can bet the MSM will stir the pot claiming racism to make it bad. So we will have not only ideological, but racial divides. Then you have Soros dumping money on the “fire”. You also have the bad blood that exists between the right and the left not to mention the way the left has mocked the right on the issue. I do not see this settled by the courts, I see this only settled by force. Remember, the South considered Abraham Lincoln a usurper that would overthrow their sovereignty. Result: Civil War. We have a man that is doing just that as President-and then it comes out that he is constitutionally unqualified? Also, all his appointees and members of his government had to cover it up-what we will be faced with is treason at the highest levels of government. And Obama and the Left would be ones to request aid from UN peace keepers to prop him up. Just to put it into perspective – American Revolution – 1/3 were Tories, 1/3 were Patriots and 1/3 didn’t care – death toll -30,000 (all causes) or 1% of the population. American Civil War (700,000) – or about 1% of the population. Putting that in perspective – you would have about 3,000,000 dead if that happened today. I am not writing this in hopes that it would happen, I am not any type of extremist, but in these situations, it is extremism that will prevail. It always does. If he turns out to be unqualified – this will end very badly.
Barry is not a US citizen. Never was…Never will be. I can not wait until the truth is revealed! I am hoping for that day so things will change. That is my definition of HOPE and CHANGE!
Obama released his birth certificate last year and put it online. He is the first and only president or even candidate for president ever to have actually proven he is a natural born citizen. What is wrong with you people who keep saying he hasn’t when he’s the only one who ever has? Cook’s orders were revoked because he had **volunteered** and had the right to change his mind. And they SHOULD have been immediately revoked due to his treasonous actions. The Army cannot tolerate a quisling in the field of battle. He dug his own grave.
smrstrauss:
One effect of rescinding the order is to remove the Major’s standing so he can’t sue. And then they pressured his employer to fire him. Now the lawsuit will be against the employer, and has to be re-filed in FL.
That seems like a pretty deliberate move on the administrations part.
“The point is that all of you blind followers of Obama are unable to focus on anything critical of him without going off-topic and whining that”
There is part of the problem. You assuming something that is not true. Just because I do not agree with you does not mean that I follow Obama. I just find the evidence lacking.
Funny how conservatives call me liberal and liberals call me conservative.
smrstrauss: Your information comes from the HUFFPO. Everyone is a volunteer in the military. According to Stefan’s own testimony – this was part of the surge for Afghanistan. You cannot back out of a commitment. What you are not reporting is that the DOD had Stefan fired from his job at a Defense Contractor. The actions of the Obama government are not those of an innocent party. Their actions are of those who have something to hide. I realize this is subjective and proves nothing, but many times when doing an investigation, you look at the accused and see how they respond to the charges. Obama and his surrogates are acting guilty. For example, I once saw a man accused of getting his 17 year old step-daughter pregnant. His defense was, “I couldn’t have, I had a vasectomy”. He was guilty, the defense “I didn’t do it” did not occur to him. Guilty look for alibis and hide behind statements like “there is no evidence that…” or “I would turn over the information, but I have rights…”
This man pledged openness and transparency. He pledged to bring people together. In this issue he is stonewalling and acting in a very divisive manner. All he has to do is produce the certificate and release his financial records from Occidental (he may have attended as a foreign student). If he does, this will go away-no story. What can it hurt to release the long form? What can it hurt to release the birth record from the hospital? It has nothing to do with privacy-(HIPAA) – we do know he was born. He looks like he is hiding something. And if it turns out that he is qualified he is obviously a very petulant man allowing this to continue for no good purpose.
Obama was born in Kenya, He will soon be caught in his web of Marxist lies.
All the libs were crying for McCains birth certificate ( since he was born in panama on a naval base )
McCain produced his to quiet the leftie loons , wheres Obamas certificate ? ( in kenya I assume )
Obama has spent close to a million dollars fighting the release of his records, If he was not hiding something , he would just release them ……..
John McCain’s grandfather and father both served in the Navy reaching the rank of Admirals. We all know that John hereself spent several years in Hanoi Hilton as a POW of the Viet Cong. How many of us could last one night lest several years?
Please explaind the rational behind the following:
“Oddly, though congressional hearings were held to determine whether Sen. John McCain was constitutionally eligible to be president as a “natural born citizen,” no controlling legal authority ever sought to verify Obama’s claim to a Hawaiian birth.”
McCains: Great American Heroes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
America is a nation of laws……lets get our love afair heads out of where the sun doesn’t shine and require the usurper to resign…..or better yet lets throw him out physically! He has lied repeatedly to the people……..unless he can just simply end this insanity and provide the proof!
Born in Hawaii or not, I can’t say. It DOES appear that he is hiding something which makes me wonder what is he hiding? Who knows the trueth and how are they being compensated for not saying anything. There is a lot of NEW powers being created and funds are flowing to who knows where. I got to wondering what will happen when the story finally breaks. Secretes don’t stay secretes forever.
let’s get a few things straight once and for all.
First for the left wing nutt terrant, don’t use the United States Flag as you symbol, it’s really distasteful for commies to use that symbol, I know obama has started to use it, but I was hoping you
marx lovers will leave that one alone. A big star in a feild of red maybe would be better for you.
Second, AlGore (the very very neo rich Algore) initiated all court actions in his election tantrum. In fact they (team algore) had lawyers down in Florida with the breifs written days before the election even took place.
Third, Obama is a Chicago Race Hustler, who has never ever, had a job. Never mind his birth certificate, he won’t even release his grade school, high school, college transcrips?? Why would the main stream media not go crazy about that? And he will never
ever produce a non forged birth certificate. Because as his grandmother said he was born in Kenya.
I bet you do want it all to go away terrant, I bet you do want to talk about other things. But what more important thing is there, than we have a guy that conned the People, and has no legal right to order real Americans into harms way, or enter in to treaties, or sign laws. Wake up ho chi moron, and go comment over at huffington where you belong.
Terrant: Bob Woodward said during Watergate: Follow the money. This makes Palin an interesting side issue that relates to the eligibility issue- there were many people filing bogus ethics charges costing her family and Alaska money to defend against them. Palin is not part of the elite, she is middle class so she had to resign or go bankrupt. What is has been proven is all of these people filing these bogus charges are paid operatives of George Soros who also used his money to bankroll Obama for his run and also for this eligibility issue. He also spent millions to stack states with liberal democratic secretaries of state thus controlling the certification process for candidates. This is an “onion”, the more you peel it, the more it stinks. This is going to end badly,
Re: “What you are not reporting is that the DOD had Stefan fired from his job at a Defense Contractor.”
We do not know this, and it would be difficult to prove. The company involved has every right to fire anyone it wants to. If I was his employer, I would fire him without being told by the Defense Department to do it. No proof. Just speculation. Made up.
The post above by GUY4013, is the ONLY fact that matters. His father citizenship is of british decent via Kenya. In order to be a NBC, BOTH of your parents are to be US citizens. If not, then you are NOT eligible.
This is the ONLY fact that should be bridged, the only fact that should be brought up in court, as it’s the ONLY part that matters. His birth certificate, while phony, doesn’t matter a tinkers since the prereq has not been established.
Tks
It certainly has taken everyone a gazillion words attempting to state some a very simple fact… If a person has “nothing to hide” why do they take such pains to hide it? In other words, there is something on the man’s real birth certificate that he does not want seen. That’s really all there is to the deal.
Re: “If in fact it comes out that he is not qualified, the punk WILL NOT step down. ”
What the hell are you talking about? There is no proof that he was born in Kenya and good proof that he was born in Hawaii.
In fact, no other president has ever proven where they were born.
Al is that you albert? I bet it is. Ok Al, since you called Major Cook a traitor. First off, everyone in the Armed Services is a “volunteers”
every single member my friend.
Second you don’t get to change your mind. They stopped the orders, because they did not want to go to court, and he was fired, because the straw boss in chief said “get that cracker fired.”
Oh, and as a little aside here Al, the congress held a hearing to see if John McCain was a United States Citizen, a war hero born on a US base, to a war hero father, and his mother both US citizens. Unlike the phoney sitting in the peoples house, bringing shame on the nation on a daily basis. He was born to basement rot, a very lose crazy marxist mother, and a lazy, womanizing,failure, muslim father. where is the birth certificate Osama, I mean Obama? release the birth certificate.
And to my brothers in Arms, keep refusing orders from this guy. Folks if you have kids that serve tell them to refuse their orders! Till this guy comes clean with his birth certificate. Which means he will have to step down, or be taken down.
Regarding the COLB issued by Hawaii, “Yes, they can lie.”
I’m adopted. The court sealed my long form birth cert at that point. I could get it unsealed, now as an adult. But that would cost a bit of money and effort. Since I can’t get the long form Cert from the city/county, all I can do is get the one issued by the state.
It lists my adopted parents as mother and father. Anyone reading it would assume that they are my birth parents. It’s a lie – a “legal lie,” since they aren’t my biological folks. That’s okay tho. The State has covered its butt in the fine print. The COLB is only “prima facie evidence,” just like it says on Obama’s. It’s just “true” at first glance. Better evidence can overcome it.
I was surprised when I first got that COLB from the state. I figured it would leave blank the mother/father lines, or say, “adopted, parentage court sealed,” for clarification to a reader.
Anyhow, the point is don’t trust what you read on it. It can be “amended” as mine is.
And the other odd aspect of it is that it’s more difficult and expensive to obtain that State issued form, than to get the long form from a local city/county clerk’s office. The long form doesn’t have any caveats in fine print about it being just prima facie evidence, either.
That said, my gut feel is that this is a huge distraction campaign being run by Obama. Odds are that he was legally adopted in Indonesia and lost all citizenship claims as a result. He went to Pakistan on an Indonesian passport as a citizen of Indonesia. Simple. That’s probably also part of his college records.
Once there’s enough publicity on the “birth cert” issue, he’ll finally produce the long form cert from Honolulu. The issue will instantly deflate to a near nullity, with no more questions posed about Indonesia or college. Everybody shuts up. He avoids the real problem by misdirection to his birth records.
That would be the clever way to handle it, wouldn’t it?
The fact is that this has never been an issue
“What the hell are you talking about? There is no proof that he was born in Kenya and good proof that he was born in Hawaii. In fact, no other president has ever proven where they were born.”
For those who slept through World History 101…… here is a condensed version.
Humans originally existed as members of small bands of nomadic hunters/gatherers. They lived on deer in the mountains during the summer and would go to the coast and live on fish and lobster in the winter.
The two most important events in all of history were:
1. The invention of beer, and
2. The invention of the wheel. The wheel was invented to get man to the beer, and the beer to the man.
These facts formed the foundation of modern civilization and together were the catalyst for the splitting of humanity into two distinct subgroups:
1. Liberals
2. Conservatives.
Once beer was discovered, it required grain and that was the beginning of agriculture. Neither the glass bottle nor aluminum can were invented yet, so while our early humans were sitting around waiting for them to be invented, they just stayed close to the brewery. That’s how villages were formed.
Some men spent their days tracking and killing animals to BB Q at night while they were drinking beer. This was the beginning of what is known as the Conservative movement.
Other men who were weaker and less skilled at hunting learned to live off the conservatives by showing up for the nightly BBQ’s and doing the sewing, fetching, and hair dressing. This was the beginning of the Liberal movement.
Some of these liberal men eventually evolved into women. The rest became known as girlie-men.
Some noteworthy liberal achievements include the domestication of cats, the invention of group therapy and group hugs, the evolution of the Hollywood actor, and the concept of Democratic voting to decide how to divide all the meat and beer that conservatives provided.
Over the years, Conservatives came to be symbolized by the largest, most powerful land animal on earth, the elephant. Liberals are symbolized by the jackass.
Modern liberals like imported beer (with lime added), but most prefer white wine or imported bottled water. They eat raw fish but like their beef well done. Sushi, tofu, and French food are standard liberal fare. Another interesting evolutionary side note: most of liberal women have higher testosterone levels than their men. Most social workers, personal injury attorneys, journalists, dreamers in Hollywood and group therapists are liberals. Liberals invented the designated hitter rule because it wasn’t fair to make the pitcher also bat.
Conservatives drink domestic beer. They eat red meat and still provide for their women. Conservatives are big-game hunters, rodeo cowboys, lumberjacks, construction workers, firemen, medical doctors, police officers, corporate executives, athletes, Marines, and generally anyone who works productively. Conservatives who own companies hire other conservatives who want to work for a living.
Liberals produce little or nothing. They like to govern the producers and decide what to do with the production. Liberals believe Europeans are more enlightened than Americans. That is why most of the liberals remained in Europe when conservatives were coming to America They crept in after the Wild West was tamed and created a business of trying to get more for nothing.
Here ends today’s lesson in world history…….
It should be noted that a liberal may have a momentary urge to angrily respond to the above before forwarding it.
A conservative will simply laugh and be so convinced of the absolute truth of this history that it will be forwarded immediately to other true believers, and to more liberals…just to **** them off.
Biden is the Acting President, as he was legally nominated not by Obama but the Democrat convention. He was then duly elected by the Electoral College as Vice-President. The instant he was certified as the elected Vice-President by Vice-President Cheney in the well of the House, per the Constitution he became Acting President due to the failure to qualify of the man elected to the office of President.
Due to the lucky circumstance that the armed forces are operating pursuant to the orders of a Secretary of Defense who holds a valid, unrevoked, appointment from former President Bush, such orders not being interfered with by Acting President Biden, I believe that our troops are acting pursuant to lawful orders.
Correction: Biden would have attained the status of Acting President after taking the oath of office as Vice-President on Jan. 20.
I don’t know that I was all that concerned about the birth certificate issue until I found that Obama also refuses to allow any education records to be released. Records from any school in the United States would show his nationality and place of birth. His college records would confirm his birth place as well as his grades and classes.
So, simply stated; the only reason he will not allow release of ANY records, has got to be that he has something to hide, i.e. his actual place of birth.
Therefore, when thinking about Obama’s refusal to allow any records of any kind to be released, there is only one conclusion that can be reached. He does not past muster as being eligible for the office of President of the united States.
What is more important, the desire for a man to be president or the Constitution?
If the obama/biden are revolked then it would not go to mccain/palin either because the constitution says you must be born in a “united state” and McCain was born in a the canal zone which was a territory. Al Gore was unqualified too because he was not born in a “united state” he was born in DC. Then you got Palin and HIllary, the constitution refers to the president as “he”, which may also disquality them.
smrstrauss,
“In fact, no other president has ever proven where they were born.”
No other president has had such glaring PROBLEMS proving where they were born, either.
Regardless of where one stands on Obama’s policies, character, or even eligibility, NO ONE can claim that it is better and wiser to continue to REFUSE to produce the long-form birth certificate than to allow it to be made public (assuming it even exists, of course). The issue, even if baseless, would be far better dealt with by releasing the long-form birth certificate (if it exists) than to continue giving fodder to “birthers” (as they are mockingly called).
At the very best, Obama’s handling of this situation indicates he is arrogant, petulant, and astoundingly unwise in perceiving and responding to public doubts. At the very worst (and it looks pretty bad right now), Obama’s handling of this situation indicates that he is arrogant, petulant, AND absolutely guilty of being a blatant usurper of the presidency. It looks to me that he is guilty, and if his guilt is proven (which I believe is likely, aside from his assuming dictatorial powers), he should be tried for treason or deported for life to a remote and uninhabited Hawaiian island, where he could write more memoirs of his life, this time un-ghostwritten.
To the lefty wack jobs.No other president had to prove his citizenship, since we already knew they where. This guy, even if he could prove he was born in Hawaii, which I’m sure most honest people, with at least a little bit of brain matter know, he can not.
He still would be a non citizen, born to a subject of the crown.
Ya see, barry was born in kenya. Is a marxist race hustler from chicago, born to a floozey, troubled, marxist mother, and a drunk womenizing, muslim goat walker.
Common sence would tell you , if Osama had nothing to hide, he would just release the unforged birth certificate. Not the short form that looks like an 11 year old cooked it up on his computer.
Can you people imagine for one second, what would have happened in the press if president bush refused to release his college transcrips? Oh my god there would have been a firestorm of stories, inuendo. Three networks at least would have done live broadcasts from the campus.
Why is it that we know so little about this guy? besides the fact that he smoked crack, and pot, tried this and that, sold some stuff to make ends meet in college, smokes two packs of ciggs a day. Was a member of a segragated church, a church where anti seminism is taught weekly, where america is bashed weekly, where white people are bashed weekly, was really close with a dude named resko, was fast friends with a dude that bombed the pentagon.
and was a state senator from Chicago. Where corruption is the name of the game and the streets run red in blood on a nightly basis.
Where is the birth certiticate Barry? Come on Osama, I mean Obama where is it? You don’t have one do you? Come on folks if your active duty, refuse your orders from this fake president, if you have kids that serve tell them not to carry out this frauds orders. That is the only way we can get to the bottom of this, and set things straight.
smrstrauss, no other President had a Grandmother who said he was born in Kenya.
Open the vault…….produce the thing already……or is it that one cannot produce what doesnt exist…..We may get Hope-Changey AFTER ALL folks….This would be the biggest change ever…the First US President to be tried for TREASON !!!!! When a leader is afraid of questions then he has somethingto hide. The Democrats most likely know the truth but they would rather subvert the Constitution than give up power. Nixon thought he was above the Law too….. People need to keep this going until Obama is forced to admit the truth..
It should be fairly easy for Obama to provide his birth certificate to quell any questions.
The answer may be that while Obama is a citizen; his mother never bothered to take the necessary steps to get a valid certificate at the time.
Therefore Obama is NOT a citizen; since birth certificates cannot be issued 30 years after the fact! The doctor’s and nurses may be dead and thus cannot witness to anything.
It becomes a “Sorry about that Charlie or Panama Jack” or in this case “Obama”. The govt and Constitution is not liable because your mother was a slacker!
smrstrauss:
it is funny how you empty drone minded people think. Remember the empty suit himself ordered an investigation on John McCain.. A Hero for America not a Zero like Ovomit. He brought this upon himself. and were supposed to believe the cracker jack box birth certificate is real?Soon all you bleeding heart liberals will realize your vote caused the collapse of america.We will be the united bankrupt states of America and you will be begging us”republicans” to save you.Well see what Acorn will do you for then when their all in jail.Ovomit is a Chicago extremist. Go purchase “hooked on Phonics” so you can learn to read the truth instead of what was feed to you in your Kool Aide.
have you been neutered yet?
wow, there are a lot of ignorant people in America! how sad, ’cause I AM AN AMERICAN CITIZEN – born at Camp Pendleton.
Do any of you, really, truly, deep-down, think for one millisecond that the president (whoever it is, not just Omaba) is allowed to take the oath of office without the appointed entities (maybe the Chief Justice..?) verifying that he is an American-born citizen?
That would make us, as a whole country and republic, look pretty effing stupid to the rest of the world. I believe that all of this was already vetted and Obama wouldn’t be sitting in office had he not met the requirements – BECAUSE I BELIEVE MY COUNTRYMEN ARE SMARTER THAN YOU ALL SEEM TO BE!
off my soapbox now. what a bunch of losers – go read a book or get jobs so you can get off these boards (I have an excuse – I’m off for the summer!.
SMRSTRAUSS SAYS “What the hell are you talking about? There is no proof that he was born in Kenya and good proof that he was born in Hawaii.
In fact, no other president has ever proven where they were born.”
What then praytell, is your “good” proof that he was born in Hawaii? You have some inside information that proves this? The burden of proof is on Barry S. A simple request to see a long form birth certificate that shows his place of birth (hospital) and the doctor who delivered him. Not too much to ask of a native from Kenya, is it? Straussie no other president has been as “transparent” as Barry right? Use common sense here, there is cloud of suspicion on this pathelogical liar impersonating to be the president of the us of a. Barry is a fraud, Bernie Madoff pales in comparison.
Hope and Change?
Why in the world would this even be considered to be a “Constitutional crisis,” threatened or otherwise???
The Constitution spells out requirements and it spells out solutions. This is an exercise in Constitutional mechanics as the Constitution operates correctly and smoothly. No crisis. Just results.
This little revenge stunt against Major Cook was just another bonehead move by the Obamatons. It’ll only add more fuel to the fire that will eventually consume the whole crooked Obama machine. I can hardly wait!! Should be a regular 4th of July spectacular!!!
Would be funny indeed if Gitmo – rather than closing down as Mohammed Hussein demands – ends up expanding to accomodate the entire White House and its team of crooked commie lawyers.
Joel Weymouth is making a lot of sense to me. He is looking toward the horizon, not just at his own feet. This is a HUGE issue. When I read that the Georgia court was going to hear his case, I got a sick feeling in my gut. This is very bad. In order to maintain political stability in any country, there has to be an overwhelming preponderance of allegiance to the military’s highest leader. Look around the world – Iran, Honduras, Iraq, Russia. Which of these countries is the most politically stable? Russia, of course, because everyone knows who is in charge. The line of command is clear. The others have fissures or breaks in the military command. This has nothing to do with democracy or the type of government that is in charge, just the fact that the ultimate base of power is brute force, whether it’s “people power” or the tanks in Tiananmen. (sp?)
In our case, we have a military that supports the rule of law and our representative democracy. In the armed forces, there are a lot of “law-and-order” type of men and women, thank God. This case could cause a crack in the wall of the military. Many of us citizens believe that “fair is fair” and that we will either follow the law or accept the consequences. If our legal minded soldiers are faced with a scenario where their “boss” was elected under false and misleading pretenses, then aside from the domestic political fallout, we would have a huge split in the military.
Imagine Secretary Gates supporting Obama and the Joint Chiefs Mullen believing Obama should resign. Of course, we have confidence in the level-headedness of our military, but despite the monolith we normally see, our military is made up of individuals – with spouses, kids, and grandkids. What lessons do you think they want to teach their kids. You fight and risk your life for your country/republic because it is based on the rule of law. The law is never applied perfectly. That is impossible. Lawyers and judges are also human, and fallible. The issue here is whether or not we as a nation decide to apply the law based on what or who is popular. If we do that, the republic weakens, and either needs to be re-established (see Abraham Lincoln) or disintegrates. I’m sure a lot of military are not satisfied with the evasiveness and obfuscation we have gotten from Barack Obama.
That is a frightening thought. Joel, I totally agree with your assessment.
For all of you who have commented, for or against, be sure to come back tomorrow, and invite your friends, we have just learned of something new on this topic that I promise few if any of you are aware of.
And it has nothing to do with the certificate itself.
Now, here we go:
@Jim
I don’t understand it, if liberals are so pro abortion wht are there so many of them?
@jungle jim
You especially want to see tomorrow’s article
@SDHensly
Yes, and why would Grandma lie?
@rockland steal
You’re right, if it had been anyone but Obama, the networks would have been all over this.
Given the action taken by the Army, you would think this would be big news, but I didn’t see a thing about it on any of the major news networks, including Fox
@Douglas J. Bender
Obama has the typical liberal attitude caried to the extreme, his way or the highway.
Any other President I can recall, Republican or Democrat, would have resolved this issue long ago.
@Napan
Better check your facts, first I beleive pelosi would be next in line and second McCains father was serving in the military at the time John was born, that makes him a natural-born U.S. citizen in the eyes of the law and the Constitution.
@Super Magnum
The man does seem to have a lot to hide.
As for your question at the end, it depends who you are asking, a patriotic American or a Kool-Aid drinker.
@Texan
LOL
As soon as I get caught up with these comments, I’m going out for a beer.
At a bar a conservative friend owns.
@sabastian curry
I don’t know if most liberal are funny, but they sure are grossly mis-informed.
@lewr
No other President has ever spent so much money and effort refusing to prove where he was born.
@Ralph
Good to hear from someone with first-hand knowledge.
As far as the costs go, I’m sure he can afford it.
As to being clever, I don’t know if I would give him that much credit.
Devious, on the other hand, and he wins the title.
@rockland steal
That feeling and movement is underway my friend. See this article:
http://freedomedium.com/2009/03/so-how-in-the-hell-are-you-going-to-declare-martial-law-now/
Greg Goss on July 16th, 2009 1:15 pm Hate to tell you this, but McCain never had any problems with citizenship. The rules for children of military member born overseas are considered natural born citizens.
Let’s consider a few more details:
1. Just who is the “Army” that rescinded the deployment order?
2. Another Watergate/All the President’s men phrase (from the film at least) : a “non-denial denial.”
First, number 1. Answer: Barack Obama.
The “Army” has a chain of command. Let’s follow it. It leads to Barack Obama and stops there. So, one of several things has happened: 1. Barack Obama made the decision to rescind the order. His motivation could range from foolish apathy to the importance of the issue all the way to a knowing “cover up” to try to make it go away. Or, he may feel that those who are persisting in asking for the proof are splitting hairs and are selfishly motiivated or jealous. 2. Someone in the chain, closer to the event made a decision to rescind the order. Why or how they could do this without consulting Mr. Obama would be hard to comprehend. 3. Rahm Emmanuel made the decision and did not even consult Mr. Obama about the issue. Part of his job is to be a gatekeeper – keep Mr. Obama focused on the important issues, and we all know there are plenty of them. I don’t know if Emmanuel can break the chain of military command – I’m just throwing out possible scenarios.
If Mr. Obama made the decision, then “cover up” is the most likely motivation. If Emmanuel made the decision, then we have a civilian making decisions for the military. If someone lower down is making the decisions, then Mr. Obama should speak out against the retaliatory action against the Maj. Cook.
Can anyone else speak to the question of where the RESCISION order may have been made?
Lets hope the Dems don’t cave on this for awhile and just let foot-n-mouth Joe finish out Barry’s term as Constitutionally required – thus preserving all the damage they have done so far and would continue to do for the next few years without reproach. That would be their smart move and I think we all know we are pretty safe on that.
If they keep holding out (as I suspect) it will eventually boil over to blood in the streets and open revolt and then when Barry’s shown to be a fraud – IT ALL GETS ROLLED BACK – ALL OF IT, and the Dems are political TOAST for decades to come!
Every president and supreme court justice has provided their birth certificate except the current usurper in office. The fact of the matter is that he is an attorney and knows how the court system works and he is using it to his advantage. He knows his time in office will expire before any court will be able to force him to show his long form birth certificate and based on his tanking approval numbers he knows he will not get re-elected that is why he is trying to cram everything down our throats now to get his agenda passed.
Don’t take for granted that he will not win re-election, rather press your congressman to supprt the HR bill that requires all candidates to be properly vetted before the next election. If the democratically controlled house refuses to bring this bill to a vote before the next election then we all know that pelosi, feinstein, dean, and reid are all protecting him and themselves because they are the ones who signed off on his eligibilty. Unfortunately I feel that this bill will never see a vote because pelosi and reid are the ones who decide what congress votes on and this bill would kill their hopes and expose their criminal activity in allowing this man to usurp the presidency.
OMiGOSH! Then that would mean Nancy Pelosi??? Is that any better than BHO??
Here’s another link: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
I realize people out there want it to be true that he isn’t a natural born citizen, but think logically for a few seconds. What’s more likely, that there’s a giant cover up and they forged documents/photoshopped/coerced every judge in America to dismiss all cases on the matter, or that, just maybe, it’s real?
Also consider that there’s no way the Republican leadership wouldn’t do everything in their power to prove that he’s ineligible, if it was possible that it was true. They made a huge deal and did everything they could to impeach Clinton, but I haven’t seen any effort to prove Obama is not a natural-born US citizen…I wonder why?
It appears that the senior leadership of the armed forces doubts Obama’s legitimacy. If this is the case the people of the United States must call upon the Joint Chiefs of Staff to relieve Barrack Obama of his position as Commander in Chief, not President, by invoking the Uniform Code of Military Justice under USC Title 10, until satisfactory proof of his birthplace is provided.
Article 134 Reads:
“Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special, or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.”
Article 133 Reads:
“Any commissioned officer, cadet, or midshipman who is convicted of conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”
This is a simple matter to solve, all Obama has to do is produce the birth certificate and it will prove that those of us that doubt his birthplace are all “right wing nuts” and “racists”. It would be a major propaganda victory for Obama to do this. I personally wouldn’t hold it against him that he held an Indonesian passport, which required somebody to denounce his US citizenship to obtain if he would settle this matter once and for all.
The bottom line is that if he has nothing to hide he would have provided the document nearly a year ago.
Derp,
Have you seen any proof that he is????? And dont go saying the colb on his website because up untill two weeks ago even Hawaii would not have accepted (a Real one) as proof for a drivers license.
Now why dont you think logically…. The conspiracy only had to go as far as the people I named who vetted him for the reasons I stated in the first post.
Now, number 2: the “non-denial denial”. Watch Robert Gibbs on YouTube when he responds to questions about the birth certificate on the most recent occasion.
Mr. Gibbs throws the responsibility back to the reporter and to others to investigate on the internet to find the information.
Obviously, he has not attempted to do the research himself. First, if he were to do his due diligence, he would not be telling a reporter for a website to do the work for his “listeners.”
Secondly, if he were to do the research, he would find that the “evidence” is far from conclusive. It’s not hard to cut through the personal attacks, partisanship, and vitriol and look clearly at the evidence.
It is as a previous comment (Joel) states: rather than provide evidence, the “accused” defends a false charge. The question was for the spokesman to provide the “long form” birth certificate. The reply is for the “accuser” to look for at the certificate of dubious origin that we have all seen.
This is a form of the “non-denial denial” of the Nixon Administration.
And when Mr. Gibbs says things such as “We put it on the Internet” and “The state of Hawaii provided a copy, with the seal of the President’s birth,” he is most likely lying. If you go back to the genesis of the controversy, it seems that the “birth certificate” was not initially posted by Sen.Obama’s campaign. It was posted by a third person/website then picked up by the Sen. Obama/”Fight the Smears” website.
To whom did the state of Hawaii “provide” the birth certificate? Give us a name, please. Again: To whom did the state of Hawaii “provide” the birth certificate? Legally, it could only be to Barack Obama. If that is true, then to whom did Sen. Obama give the certified copy. When did that person post the copy on the website and under whose authority? Did Mr. Obama, who will not release any of his other personal records, really authorize the release of such a personal document? Where was the “candidate Obama” press conference during which he presented the document to dispel all of the chatter?
If this controversy never ends, then Mr. Obama has only himself to blame. If the “long form” is now released, then the true believers will say it is a forgery. The time to quiet this type of controversy is as soon as it surfaces. Now that nearly a year has passed, it is almost impossible to completely clear up. That may have been the strategy all along.
In Mr. Obama’s meteoric rise to power, he has been nearly fully insulated. He seems to have the right friends and connections (as anyone who is elected to the presidency must have) to be able to deceive and manipulate a considerable portion of the American people. Our elected officials of all ilk often do just that.
The incomplete revelations with regard to Mr. Obama’s birthplace and citizenship seemed to leave an opening through which lovers of liberty and justice could advance, and by doing so, refresh those particular ideals held by our Founding Fathers.
The final verdict has not been delivered, but we who believe a great injustice is being committed may have to accept defeat and get back to defending ourselves against the onslaught of collectivist proposals that we face and can expect to face from our political class (Democrats and Republicans included).
Anonymous [01/17/2009 - 1:44 p.m.],
“The final verdict has not been delivered, but we who believe a great injustice is being committed may have to accept defeat and get back to defending ourselves against the onslaught of collectivist proposals that we face and can expect to face from our political class (Democrats and Republicans included).”
To quote from a beloved leader of authority and legitimacy equal to Obama’s: “Never give up, never surrender!”
There is NO CONSPIRACY! The whole process is simply the cumulative effect of individuals choosing to cover their own rear end. Would you want to be the judge who accepted a case or decided against such a powerful person?
Forget about being unpopular. Forget about possibly going down in history as the person who provided the spark for a national calamity. Instead, think about the political pressure, powerful forces that could impeach you, drag you through the mud, and make life very difficult for you.
Now weigh that against having a good paying job, prestige in the community, a nice house, and the possibility of advancing your career. What would you choose?
That’s the way I see reality. We live in a tough world.
There’s no conspiracy.
If indeed it is proven that Obama is not a natural born U.S. citizen, he will be remembered not only “as the man who was the cause of the biggest Constitutional crisis this country has ever seen”, but as the author of the biggest electoral fraud in the history of Western democracies — the first American who made himself to be invested as president under false pretexts. The criminal side of this story is being disregarded even by the most pugnacious “birthers”. As to the obamaniacs that try to make this tragedy a mockery, in the final account they laugh at themselves: they confess that they don’t mind to be lied to, provided the lie comes from the left. Their sense of obedience to the leftist fashion overpasses by far their sense of their own dignity as rational beings entitled to know the truth.
Re: The Army didn’t even fight it, they simply withdrew his deployment. ”
I am told that the reason was that a volunteer has the right to withdraw his offer to serve in Afghanistan. Moreover, does it make any logical sense to force someone who does not want to serve in Afghanistan to do so, unless he provided critical skills and was likely to be useful in Afghanistan.
In this case we have a fellow who volunteered for Afghanistan in may (when Obama was president, you know) and then took it back in July. Either this guy cannot make up his mind (bad for a combat officer), or he is willing to make volunteering for service subject to his hatred of Obama. Since it is unlikely that he changed his mind from May to July, the real cause of him volunteering in May was to create a test case on this issue.
The Army may well have concluded that it it regards volunteering for combat service as something that should not be trifled with for alternative motives.
Makes sense to me Anonymous. I was trying to elude to the same thing when responding to Terrant. I just hate saying it because I hate to believe that our leaders would shirk their responsibilities like this. It is happening everyday on many issues though.
NO CONSPIRACY
Furthermore, think of someone in the upper eschelon of the military initiating the process to relieve the Commander in Chief of his duties. If you are wrong, there is no way to recover your reputation. EVER.
If you are right, but a convincing forgery of the “long form” is presented, you are still screwed.
If you are right, and the evidence supports you, AND Mr. Obama is removed, the personal safety of you or your family would be in jeopardy for at least two generations, maybe more.
That is why only the “nuts” can speak out on the issue – they have the least to lose.
Why do you think this entry is listed as ANONYMOUS.
Now, any response to: Who made the decision to rescind?
I love the cluelessness of the right-wing. “Oooh, because they revoked his orders, they must know Obama’s not a citizen!” Puh-lease! Has anyone thought about the possibility that they don’t want to send some retard who’s bat-sh*t crazy into the field? Because that’s what the guy is. He’s a moron who’s stupid enough to believe the right-wing lies as truth. I wouldn’t want him overseas either! I’m sure most military stationed in the Middle East wouldn’t want this loon over there, putting them into more danger either! But because dotards on the right have to see things as either their way or a big conspiracy theory, we have stupid reasons like this.
smrstrauss,
That sounds logical. So you think this didn’t get anywhere near Obama. Okay, I can accept that.
The whole army is a volunteer force, there is no way he would have made Major if he was a bad combat officer. The whole thing is nothing but a cat and mouse game with the courts. Finally a judge willing to hear the merits of the arguement and obama’s clan removes his standing by cancelling his orders. Now plaintiff has to refile where he lives in Fl and find another judge willing to listen. The judge in Ga that was willing to listen is a retired Marine that is why he was willing; finding another one willing will be almost impossible as Anonymous has posted the pertinate reasons.
Sue Mcdonalds for spilling coffee on yourself and you can get a judge to hear it but God help us all in trying to find out if the person occupying the office of president is within the constitutional requirements.
Jeff Langston your are either just plain stupid or the kool-aide is getting to you, I would say both.
Subject: Professor Peter Spiro appearance on Lou Dobbs radio show yesterday re Obama’s birth certificate
Like the lady asked on that famous hamburger commercial: “where’s the beef?”, we ask “where is the birth certificate Mr. Obama?
”
Dear Professor Peter Spiro,
I heard you on the radio yesterday on the Lou Dobbs show regarding Obama’s eligibility to be President. And though you were less antagonistic and hostile than a number of news commentators such as Keith Olbermann, Rachel Maddow and Joan Walsh, I must admit am staggered that you had not done your due diligence to research the integrity of Obama’s birth certificate. I am also startled that you would effectively create the impression that the burden of proof for producing a genuine long form birth certificate is on the host of plaintiffs and the American people to produce real evidence of his birth certificate, when the burden of proof is upon Obama himself. I am also shocked that without having even examined any of the evidence and the so-called birth certificate posted online that you would publicly label those who are simply asking for the long form birth certificate as people on the “fringe” (as I recall your attitude towards them). You gave no indication that you even knew the difference between a long form birth certificate and a certificate of live birth, or that the COLB shown on the Internet by Obamanites was flawed. Imagine a distinguished law professor and expert on the U.S. Constitution giving such credence to hearsay that Obama’s birth certificate is genuine. Fortunately, someone who wasn’t even an attorney called the Lou Dobbs show right after you who was extremely more informed than you about this and many other cases against Obama, to properly inform the listening audience, as did most the the subsequent calls on this show as well as the radio show that followed Lou Dobbs (The Steve Malzberg Show). It could not have been more obvious that you were a biased mouthpiece for Obama’s propaganda machine. This is really tragic, given that you are professor of law at a university so close to the Liberty Bell. I am a Vietnam War era veteran, so I am also offended that you would show such contempt for Maj. Stefan Cook who is in the military, as though he had no grounds for his case.
I was a co-defendant with Dr. Orly Taitz in a federal lawsuit in Philadelphia on June 25, 2009. I stood before Judge Robreno [Judge Robreno dismissed me from the case] demanded affidavits and proof of Philip Berg’s charges against her and the other defendants, compelling him to produce real proof, giving him 30 days to produce real evidence. .I commend him for this. It is too bad that you, like a host of Americans and other plaintiffs in lawsuits around the country, aren’t at least publicly asking Obama to produce real evidence where he was born and a real long form birth certificate. You did not even disguise very well your contempt for those of us who are asking for proof of what the U.S. Constitution requires, that you teach! I am sure glad that Judge Robreno was neutral in his deliberations. So why weren’t you [even though this was not in court…there is still such thing a credibility in the court of public opinion? In this regard, I am compelled to send you a copy of my letter to Rachel Maddow and Joan Walsh who slandered birthers below.
Contrary to Keith Olbermann’s irresponsible journalism, the fact is, it is Obama who is the biggest conman in history. The cowards are the media who will not verify Obama’s real long form birth certificate and mock those who request it. So I suggest you get educated about this case and listen to Dr. Orly Taitz on the The Steve Malzberg Show radio today who follows the Lou Dobbs show 4-6 pm (at least in NYC) as well as visit Dr. Orly Taitz’ website:
http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/blog1/
and fyi, here is my article entitled: Barrack Obama Immaculate Deception
http://www.voiceoftruthradio.com/obdeception.htm
You stated that the matter is quite simple. To this I agree, produce a real long form birth certificate which shows hospital, attending physician, etc., on order to be a legitimate natural born President of the United States.
I remain shocked that you would come to such an airtight conclusion having heard and examined (in detail) only one side of the story.
I hope that once you have examined this case you will come back on Lou Dobbs show and apologize.
Sincerely,
James Sundquist
Rock Salt Publishing
cc Lou Dobbs, Dr. Orly Taitz, Larry Spargimino, Wiley Drake
Begin forwarded message:
From: James Sundquist
Date: June 17, 2009 10:00:46 AM EDT
To: rachel@msnbc.com, jwalsh@salon.com, readermail@salon.com
Cc: Orly Taitz , Joseph Farah , Alan_Keyes@msn.com, wileydrake@hotmail.com, info@renewamerica.us, elSpargimino@aol.com, Ingrid Schlueter
Subject: Response to Rachel Maddow and Joan Walsh mockery of “Birthers” re Obama legitimacy
Dear Ms. Rachel Maddow and Joan Walsh,
I saw your MSNBC piece in which you mock “Birthers Movement” re Obama’s birth certificate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhuPw5WCO0A
If people are as whacked out “nutjobs…unhinged” (Joan Walsh Salon editor) or crazies as Shepherd Smith at Fox, who question Barack Obama because he has not provided a Long Form Birth Certificate, then why am I not also a “crazy” because the State of New Jersey required me and my wife to produce one in order to adopt a child. If I took your advice, there would easily be one more orphan still living in the streets.
You have just launched a cruise missile into the very heart of your own credibility. You apparently don’t even know the difference between a COLB and a real long form birth certificate.
You did not even mention Dr. Orly Taitz (attorney and dentist) who is one of the main crusaders and figures filing lawsuits against Obama.
If you really want to interview an expert on the other side of this issue, why don’t you interview Dr. Orly Taitz, who does not hold any of the extremist views that you and Ms. Walsh’s paint brush.
Here is her website: http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/blog1/
Here is her email: dr_taitz@yahoo.com
And here is her tel #: 1.949.683.5411
To take your own advice, you also need to be responsible for the views you espouse on national television. MSNBC and THE SALON have so virtually become Obama Propaganda Mouthpieces, I can’t help but wonder why MSNBC has not also moved into the White House, like ABC?
I am not going to call you names like you and Ms. Walsh did of a number of “birthers” on your TV interview, but am going to tell you both that you are both irresponsible in your journalism. I am certain that Dr. Taitz would respond to your request for an interview…that is if you are really interested in balanced journalism and allowing your viewers to hear the other side of the story!
Sincerely,
James Sundquist
Rock Salt Publishing
[...] produce his eligibility to hold that title, we may be on the verge of seeing change beyond belief. Obama And His Birth Certificate Are About To Make History : FreedoMedium ————————————- Why doesn’t he release it ? Like I said earlier, it’s [...]
Salvaterra;
“Terrant, if this didn’t have any merit don’t you think the Army would tell Major Cook that his deployment would stand in spite of his challenge? The Army didn’t even fight it, they simply withdrew his deployment. That is a big deal, and that is the story.”"
No. The deployment was voluntary. MAJ Cook rescinded his volition. His request was accepted. End of the core story.
The ‘rest of the story” is that by demonstrating that his request for deployment was subterfuge for the purpose of political grandstanding, he acted in a manner both disloyal and insubordinate. Thus endeth the security clearance.
And with it… his eligibility (yes, that’s the correct word, can you believe it?) for the civilian job he held.
The latest in a long line of ironies.
Matt:
“The whole army is a volunteer force, there is no way he would have made Major if he was a bad combat officer. ”
Actually, the fact that he was not yet a Lieutenant Colonel after 20 years indicates that he was at best a very, very ordinary officer. It also does not appear he has ever been a “combat” officer at all. Though there are Combat Engineers, he does not appear to have been one of them.
Matt:
“Every president and supreme court justice has provided their birth certificate except the current usurper in office. ”
How could this be true since most Presidents and Supreme Court Justices never had birth certificates in the first place? Birth certificates are actually very recent inventions. Truman did not have one. Neither did Eisenhower. Reagan had a deleayed certificate, issued years after his actual birth.
And BTW, Jimmy Carter was the first American president ever born in a hospital.
You need to stop making stuff up. It makes the Birther movement look… dishonest.
@Simtech (very clever of you)
“The ‘rest of the story” is that by demonstrating that his request for deployment was subterfuge for the purpose of political grandstanding, he acted in a manner both disloyal and insubordinate. Thus endeth the security clearance.”
How was it proven that his request for deployment was subterfuge for anything? It never went to court. They accepted the request of an Army Major the day before his deployment without an explanation.
And this is not the real story. The real story, again, is where is the proof of natural born citizenship??
Simtech,
“The ‘rest of the story” is that by demonstrating that his request for deployment was subterfuge for the purpose of political grandstanding, he acted in a manner both disloyal and insubordinate. Thus endeth the security clearance.”
Has it ever occurred to you, or others like you who are questioning Major Cook’s motives for challenging Obama’s orders for him to deploy to Afghanistan, that in May of 2009, when Cook volunteered to go to Afghanistan, he was not full of doubts about Obama’s legitimacy as president, but only later became aware of some of the issues, and at THAT point became convinced that Obama was illegitimate? I imagine it hasn’t. No, it is far easier to assume the worst than to look at the actual evidence.
1. Major Cook did not volunteer to go to Afghanistan, Major Cook received orders to go to Afghanistan. Some of you are reading the Huffington Post and not getting their facts straight.
2. These same people are ignoring the fact that this man has been fired from his job working for a defense contractor at the direct pressure of the DOD. Obama and his junta are acting like they are guilty and practicing methods used by African Dictators, not Western European Democracies let alone a Constitutional Republic.
3. Just for sake of argument – so what if he did, so what if he manipulated the system politically – the NAACP, ACLU, LULAC and every other leftist organization has done that for the last 100 years. So what-the courts have dismissed all of the challenges to Obama’s eligibility not on the evidence for or against- but because the courts rule that only Congress or Political parties have the standing. What? A private citizen, if they suddenly have evidence that an official running for office is ineligible for that office has no authority to raise the question even in a court of law. That ladies and gentlemen is truly and outrage. What all of you who keep bringing up “well he volunteered” are getting lost in Ad Hominem arguments and ignoring what is going on.
4. Before we start using “does it make any logical sense to force someone who does not want to serve in Afghanistan to do so” – the army does not allow you to back out on a commitment you made! Name me one time when a soldier welshed and the Army did not come down on him like a ton of bricks.
5. Cowards have always referred to people who rock the boat as nuts. And as far as nuts putting their name and making an issue of this -they are either “nuts” or maybe they are patriots. I use my name because I am a believer in the fact that you do not fight battles that are only winnable, you fight battles that you believe are right and if you stand alone and in the end die alone: this should not cause you to falter. Any other motive than the rightness of your cause, you are no more than a coward.
6. “with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor. ” The very last sentence of the Declaration of Independence. I guess they were nuts too. And all of you “sane” people are enjoying the freedom won by these “nuts”. What hypocrites. And I might add, I myself will not stand by and be silent while the great work of these great men is destroyed by the likes of Obama and his Marxist cronies.
7. The whole system from top to bottom has become “conspiratorial”. The Republicans and Democrats in their party machinery select who they want run in any election from city alderman all the way up to President. Remember the story when Edwards finally admitted about the affair and it was reported that his staff knew about and planned to sabotage his campaign if it looked like he would get the nomination. This shows how corrupt this system is-taking his money, representing him with full readiness to destroy him if it looked like he was going to win. And you don’t think they could cover up this stuff about Obama. The fact that the Lusitania was carrying arms and troops, making it a valid target by German U-Boats was kept hidden for almost 80 years and only admitted to in the 1990’s. Remember the news media covered up the fact that Roosevelt was wheel chair bound and John Kennedy was in multiple affairs during his presidency. Come on guys – the news media was part of that “conspiracy”. Lest we forget Monica Lewinsky, all of that was covered up, ridiculed, scorned, and denied by Clinton- until it all came out. But all of the sheep bleat – “that’s just a conspiracy theory”. With the Internet – the secrets are getting out.
These are just some thoughts about this whole thing.
Several Points.
1. Too many people take the bile from the Huffington Post and Liberal News Organs as gospel. Wake up people.
2. Mac and Sarah would not be pres and vp if Obama and Biden were ruled out as imposters. I believe it goes to the Speaker of the House. Then to the Secretary of State. Aren’t those a couple of choices? At least we wouldn’t have to worry about more change. They have already had theirs.
3. If the public doesn’t wake up this summer, and soon, it will be too late for America. What are you doing Labor Day Weekend. Meet us in DC
The “Certification of Live Birth’ for President Obama that was posted on President Obama’s campaign site & the Daily Kos has NEVER been seen in HARD copy. It ONLY exists as a web image. It has NEVER been produced for examination as an orginal document from the State of Hawaii.
In the over 30 ‘birth’ court cases thus far, it has NEVER been presented as evidence of President Obama’s birth by his lawyers. Why? It has NEVER been examined under the rules of evidence by ANY COURT.
No court has ever ruled that President Obama is a natural born citizen.
For those of you who accept a web imgae as proof of the location of President Obama’s birth being Hawaii, what if I posted a web image of a ‘Certification of Live Birth’ that stated that President Obama was born in Iceland, would you accept it as legal proof or would you demand to see the original hard copy document issued by the State of Hawaii? Or would you cry ‘PhotoShop’!
Thus far NO ONE has ever seen the orginal hard copy of the ‘Certification of Live Birth’. Web images do not meet the rules of evidence as proof of birth in ANY US court.
So, where is the hard copy of the Daily Kos image and why hasn’t President Obama’s legal teams ever presented it to a court for examination?
@Joel Weymouth
I couldn’t agree with you more!
On your first couple points, I have some questions in to the lawyer of Major Cook on those issues because I want to get my own clarification. When I hear back everyone will know.
As for the rest… right on bro!
This emphasis on the long-form COLB is probably the most direct approach to busting the coverup, but a thorough vetting can and should look at ALL available records – or should I say, non-available records… and since they’ve been blocked, the safe guess is that theyre all incriminating: his father’s British citizenship status, for starters (converted automatically to Kenyan in 63), adoption records re Sotoero and his Indonesian citizenship (incl. necessary relinquishment of any previous citizenship), the fact that the son of a Muslim father is automatically a Muslim, evidence of foreign-student status while attending college, the non-US passport used for the Pakistan visit in 1980, et al. And the rescinding of Maj Cook’s orders.
Everything cumulatively builds an absolute MOUNTAIN of evidence that will show a DELIBERATE and CRIMINAL intent to deceive and defraud the nation. But the more you consider it, the more the face-value explanation seems lacking. It’s inconceivable that ’smart people’ would undertake such an impossible and doomed task of covering up the truth. And keeping it covered.
So, looking beyond the birth issue, ya gotta wonder — has this whole drama been orchestrated, calculated, made to order?? It all seems to beg the question whether this entire Obama fiasco has been a giant false-flag operation (a la 9/11), an effort by unseen neocon forces to expose, discredit, and destroy the anti-nationalists. Gimme something better. Are we to take this all at face value, that it’s all been a straightforward attempt to hide the obvious truth? I cannot believe people are that stupid, to think they can totally bamboozle the entire country. Forever..
I’m thinking orchestration.
You people must be on LSD. You believe the most remarkable fantasies, without any facts whatsoever.
First, according to FOX: “U.S. Army Major Stefan Frederick Cook, who volunteered for duty in May…filed a request last week in federal court seeking a temporary restraining order and status as a conscientious objector through his attorney…. Incidentally, Cook did not have to hire a lawyer to refuse his orders to go to Afghanistan. As a reserve soldier and volunteer, he has the right to revoke his deployment orders.” He didn’t need any reason to have his orders revoked. All he had to do was ask. He asked, they were revoked.
Second, he was a contractor. The DoD was the client. If a client doesn’t want a contractor working for them, he’s gone. That’s the nature of contracting.
Third, your concept of natural-born citizen has no basis in law. Vattel is not, in any way, binding US law. If you read U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, you’ll find an extensive discussion of what “natural born” meant in English common law, with the only mention of Vattel in the dissent. Neither the majority opinion nor the dissent makes a distinction between “natural born” or “native born”. The only distinction is between “natural born” and “naturalized”.
Finally (although I could go on for pages), a Certification of Live Birth is a birth certificate. It certifies that the state has an official record of the information on the Certification. Obama’s states that he was born in Honolulu, so that’s what the state’s database says.
This whole thing is just a childish witch hunt. Grow up!
OK, nixter just brought up other bits of misinformation.
1. The so-called “long-form COLB” may not even exist anymore. Since the Hawaiian Dept. of Health computerized in 2001, they may no longer maintain the old paper records. In any event, all Hawaii issues any more is the Certification of Live Birth.
2. Obama lost his Kenyan citizenship in 1982, when he turned 21 and didn’t confirm it. Kenya does not allow dual citizenship for adults.
3. There’s no evidence that he was ever officially adopted by his step-father.
4. Indonesian law at the time would not have permitted him to obtain Indonesian citizenship. And U.S. law would not have allowed him, as a minor, to relinquish his U.S. citizenship
5. Muslim law is irrelevant. Under our law, the individual has religious freedom, and can choose his own religion, and change it whenever he wishes to. Or don’t you believe in the Constitution?
6. There is no “evidence of foreign-student status while attending college”. The only thing I’ve ever seen on that subject was an April Fools joke.
7. “the non-US passport used for the Pakistan visit in 1980″. More BS. It was perfectly legal to go to Pakistan on a U.S. passport in 1980.
Do you people have any facts that aren’t just made up?
The problem with the issue of Barry’s birth certificate is that it is too late. The Country would come apart if the issue were pressed by anyone in or out of government. The people who elected him would never recognize a ruling against his eligibility. They simply could not grasp the concept. The question of where he was born could only have been answered by Barry’s Grandma but she got sick and died.
Twitchy,
You still haven’t answered my question. I am ONLY referring to the purported Certification of Live Birth that the Daily Kos has posted on the web. Has ANYONE ever seen the HARD copy document of the Daily KOS image? Where did the Daily KOS get the image that they posted? The State of Hawaii will not release it without President Obama’s permission which we all know that he has not given. How did they manage to get the image?
Why in over 30 court cases has it NEVER been presented as evidence? If the Daily KOS has it, why doesn’t President Obama’s legal team have it? And why haven’t they USED it?
You seem to accept it as proof positive yet all we have is an image.
If you accept the Daily KOS image as genuine, what is your basis for such a conclusion? Have you seen it? Do we have an affidavit attesting to its authenticity submitted to a court under the penalty of purjury?
President Obama’s legal team has responded to all of the lawsuits yet they have NEVER asked for summary dismissal by attaching a hard copy document of the image posted on the Daily KOS.
It would be so simple to end these cases with the initial filing from President Obama’s legal teams as follows:
Judge, this case is BS. See Exhibit A ‘Certification of Live Birth’ from the State of Hawaii. Request summary dissmissal.
End of case.
If the image posted on the Daily KOS is real, why hasn’t the hard copy certificate ever been presented to any court?
Also not that President Obama has NEVER stated that the document is real nor has his WH staff ever refered to it directly. They too avoid talking about it.
Forget all the other arguments and conspiracy theories; I want to know why this supposed ‘Certification of Live Birth’ has never been submitted to a court.
The ONLY logical conclusion that I can come to is that it document does NOT exist.
Now if the Daily KOS image is a fake, what OTHER proof do you have that President Obama was born in Hawaii? And I mean proof that will stand up to the rules of evidence in any US court that you choose.
James Sundquist,
You state “You gave no indication that you even knew the difference between a long form birth certificate and a certificate of live birth, or that the COLB shown on the Internet by Obamanites was flawed.”
You display your own ignorance. The “long form birth certificate” is a “Certificate of Live Birth”. What Obama’s campaign showed on the internet was a “Certification of Live Birth”. And there doesn’t seem to have been anything “flawed” about it. WND even had experts examine the images, and they found nothing wrong with them, though they did find that some of those claiming to have found flaws had tampered with the images to produce those flaws.
And you seem to think that every state issues the same form of birth certificate. More and more states are simply issuing Certifications of Live Birth when you request a copy of your birth certificate. The Certification is just that, a certification that the information on it comes from the state’s official records. The Certification is legal documentation for any official purpose, if it has the required signature and seal.
Twitchy,
“What Obama’s campaign showed on the internet was a ‘Certification of Live Birth’.”
It was actually “The Daily Kos”, I believe, which first showed the Certification of Live Birth, and they did so via the Internet. But you haven’t answered Anthony Oresteen’s quite relevant points about the HARD COPY of that Internet image.
“And there doesn’t seem to have been anything ‘flawed’ about it. WND even had experts examine the images, and they found nothing wrong with them, though they did find that some of those claiming to have found flaws had tampered with the images to produce those flaws.”
Do you have a link to the WND article which supposedly says this? Do you have any evidence to support your claim regarding WND’s view on the legitimacy of the Internet version of Obama’s Certification of Live Birth?
Rockland,
“First for the left wing nutt[sic] terrant, don’t use the United States Flag as you[sic] symbol,”
You might want to get your eyes checked. My icon is not a flag. If you can’t tell the difference, you might have a problem. Secondly, who are you to tell me what I can or cannot do? I guess you cannot accept that I do not accept your conspiracy theory so you call me a commie. How very McCarthyist of you.
As for your second point, I’m not allowed to talk about Bush v. Palm Beach County Canvassing Board but I will say that I do not disagree with your assessment of Gore.
He provided his certificate. Hawaii has stated that it is valid and that he has a valid long form. McCain and the GOP has accepted it. Congress has accepted it (granted with that lot that really does not mean much). SCOTUS has rejected the challenge not once but twice. The vast majority of Americans accept it. The ball really is in the birther’s court. Where is the proof that he is not a natural born citizen? I know that people went over to Kenya looking for proof that he was born there. I would expect that if there was anything substantial found there, Fox News and other conservative blogs would be all over that like flies on poop. Or is Fox News in the tank too?
I could care less the birthers continue their witch hunt. It s a free country. Given the lack of strong proof that he is not a natural born citizen, I would say that there is much better and more important issues to address: cap and trade, crooks in the cabinet, and GM/Chrysler to name a few.
Anthony Oresteen,
I’ve never seen the images at the Daily Kos, since I don’t have any reason to go there. I have seen the images at factcheck.org. They are hi-res photos of an actual document. Apparently the people from FactCheck have seen the original, since they took the pictures of it. I would guess that the Daily Kos got their image from the same place that FactCheck got the document they photographed, the Obama campaign.
Why would the Obama legal team need the CoLB? All they have to do is ask any court to uphold existing law, and the case gets thrown out. There is no evidence to support any of the allegations against BO. Practically the very definition of frivolous lawsuit.
As far as authenticity, the photos show a document that’s exactly like many other documents issued by the State of Hawaii. It has the official signature and the official raised seal. Just as it is, it is prima facie evidence of the truth of the information it contains. The State of Hawaii has confirmed that they have BO’s BC “on record” (which could mean that it’s just a row in a database), and has never stated that the CoLB is not a legitimate document.
As for “nor has his WH staff ever refered to it directly. They too avoid talking about it”: not what WND says. They put a different spin on it, of course.
Douglas J. Bender,
Last August:
“A separate WND investigation into Obama’s certification of live birth utilizing forgery experts also found the document to be authentic. The investigation also revealed methods used by some of the bloggers to determine the document was fake involved forgeries, in that a few bloggers added text and images to the certificate scan that weren’t originally there.”
Of course, later they said that that still didn’t prove that it was valid.
Of course this suspicion has merit: Obama has NOT produced a birth certificate that proves his citizenship. Unitl the day he does that, he will ALWAYS be suspected of non-citizenship.
It’s very simple. Produce the birth certificate.
First of all… the good Major is a member of the Military… and has the responsibility to set a good example for the other members of the Service. He will be FORCED out of the Military… he has already lost his civilian job because the POWERS that be have to make an example of him. My question is it worh it.
Anyone with half a brain already knows… there is NOTHING that any one can do about the lack of history for THE MESSIAH.
We have two books that he alledged wrote.. but it appears he may have had help. Anyone back before computers… knows what a VALID BIRTH CERTIFICATE looks like… Those from the 60’s were TYPED.. photo copied and filed away.. SO THERE IS a hard copy of his ORIGINAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE available somewhere. ( Could that be WHY his school records from kindergarden through HARVARD are sealed and no information available to disprove his lies.)
Remember as a lawyer… he knowS the system… IF there are no facts AVAILABLE then no one can disprove his lies… because guess what all associated with his life are DEAD.
You see there is no one that can validate anything about Obama, no grades, no scholarship information, no entrance exam scores, no medical files, nothing to prove he existed EXCEPT that he attended high school, had a B- there, and managed to get into the BEST PRIVATE COLLEGES in the Country.
He has a access to a HARD COPY of the original copy of his birth certificater… BUT he FAILS TO QUITE all the rumors and theories…BECAUSE he WON and does not have to.
If a copy does become available in his LIFETIME. And he lied to the Ameican people… he SHOULD BE SHOT for TREASON against the United States.
And as a military viet I would gladly volunteer to be in charge of the firing squad.
He did. You just don’t want to believe it. But what he’s produced is enough to prove citizenship. Ask the State Department. They will accept it to get a US passport. Any branch of the federal government will accept it.
It’s only birthers that won’t accept it. That’s why this is nothing but a witch hunt and a wacko conspiracy theory.
Twitchy,
Let’s grant for the moment that there is nothing to the birth certificate issue, and he was born in Hawaii, and has an original long-form birth certificate on file in Hawaii. Then why:
- Won’t he simply authorize the release of that document, FROM that source (as opposed to indirectly releasing the short-form via the Internet)?
- Won’t he release his college records?
- Has he hidden his Senate records (from what I understand, though I might be confusing things)?
For someone who claims that he will be “transparent”, he’s got a long way to go, to say the least.
If Obama is not worried then where has his “Fight The Smears” web site with its certificate of live birth gone to?
Just about every link I tried on Google brought up an error message. The couple of links that did work ended up at my.barackobama.com and there was no mention of the birth certificate issue. It also looks nothing like the original site.
I was able to use the links on Google to find the certificate of live birth saved as a screen shot (apparently from the original Fight The Smears site) on a couple of blogs. Maybe I am just computer illiterate but looks to me like the site itself is gone now. What gives with that?
Let’s just have the long form birth certificate, his school records to see if he claimed to be a foreign student and his passport. This smells fishy and is too easily fixed by releasing records instead of spending all the money and time to stall. What is he hiding?
There are other important topics but if he is not eligible then the other topics are no longer an issue at all until the office of the president can be filled by someone legally qualified to hold that office.
This issue is not going away so the sooner it is dealt with the better for the country.
Twitchy,
“But what he’s produced is enough to prove citizenship. Ask the State Department. They will accept it to get a US passport. Any branch of the federal government will accept it.”
You are apparently technically correct. But only a few weeks or months ago, you WOULDN’T HAVE BEEN. The Hawaiian “Homeland” something-or-other, an official government agency in Hawaii, had it stated on their website for the longest time that for certain programs (theirs? or particular programs they offered?) they would NOT accept the “Certification of Live Birth”, but REQUIRED the “Certificate of Live Birth” (otherwise known as the “long-form Birth Certificate”). Only recently did they change this requirement, as evidenced by the change of their statements on their website regarding this. Perhaps you’d like to attempt to explain this rather odd discrepancy.
@Terrant
Why has Obama paid Perkins Coie law firm over $1 million to keep his documents sealed? http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaLawsuits.htm
Why on the first day of his presidency did Obama sign an Executive order (#13489) that basically sealed any official documents he does not want released to the public?
You mention journalists going over to Kenya to find information. But they detain and deport journalists like Jerome Corsi who go over there to get information on this topic.
The fact that liberals came up with the stupid term “birther” shows how much they want to demean this subject and change it back to how terrible Republicans are. It is childish and shows that liberals are a bunch of group thinking sheep that will bleat out any slogan that comes down the pike in unison.
Douglas,
1. The State of Hawaii has stated that they stopped issuing copies of the Certificate of Live Birth (the original long-form birth certificate) sometime after 2001, when they computerized all those records, and now all you can get is the Certification of Live Birth, which is just what it says it is, a certification that the information on it comes from Hawaii’s official records. It’s not even clear that the original paper certificates even exist any more. The Hawaii Dept. of Health (DoH) said that they had BO’s information “on record”, which could simply mean that it is recorded in their database. Either way, it doesn’t matter what he authorizes, he can’t get the original long-form birth certificate.
2. Why should he release his college records? Why is it any of our business?
3. I don’t know anything about his Senate records.
4. That would be the Department of Hawaiian Homelands, and, no, they never said that they wouldn’t accept the Certification. What they said was that applying for a native Hawaiian homestead using the Certification would delay the application, and cost more. It was never clear why that would be so, since the only criteria was 50% or more native Hawaiian ancestry. Perhaps it was due to simple bureaucratic inertia.
I would guess that that page of their website just didn’t get updated when the DoH stopped issuing copies of the Certificate of Live Birth, sometime between 2001 and now. If you’ve ever been involved with maintaining documentation, you’ll know how common that is. This mess probably brought that to someone’s attention and they had it fixed.
And the Hawaiian DHH isn’t federal, so I still would have been technically correct. 7;-]
Salvaterra,
Where’s your proof that “Obama paid Perkins Coie law firm over $1 million to keep his documents sealed”? I know about the campaign disclosure reports, but what proof do you have of your purported purpose of those expenditures? How much did the Bush campaign spend on legal expenses after the 2000 and 2004 elections? How much did McCain spend after losing in 2008?
Executive order 13489 applies only to documentary materials maintained by the National Archives and Records Administration pursuant to the Presidential Records Act, including Vice Presidential records. It also revoked Executive Order 13233, issued by President Bush, which was much more restrictive.
As for “The fact that liberals came up with the stupid term “birther” shows how much they want to demean this subject and change it back to how terrible Republicans are. It is childish and shows that liberals are a bunch of group thinking sheep that will bleat out any slogan that comes down the pike in unison.”
Isn’t this entire topic a demonstration that birthers “are a bunch of group thinking sheep that will bleat out any slogan that comes down the pike in unison”? No facts, no evidence, just wild, baseless accusations, ignorance and outright fraud.
C. L. Robison,
Websites come and go. The campaign is over. The birthers are making no headway, since it’s obvious, after a year or so, that they’ve got nothing to go on. Why keep up a website that no longer serves any purpose?
And you can find hi-res photos of the certificate at factcheck.org.
It only smells fishy because you keep sticking fish up your nose. Stop it!
Other issues that are not going away:
The Earth is flat.
The CIA killed Kennedy.
Elvis lives!
The Moon landing was faked.
9/11 was a government plot, as was OKC and any number of aircraft accidents.
Bob Miller,
The Major is an idiot. He volunteered for an assignment, then asked a court to issue a restraining order against the Army so he could get attention for his fantasies about BO. He had the right to have his orders revoked at any time up until he reported for duty. Making it a court case just shows lousy judgment, or a severe case of partisanship. Or is that the same thing?
The client has every right to refuse to have a particular contractor work on their project, for any, or no, reason. If his employer had other work he could do, he could be transferred to a different project for a different client. That wasn’t the case, so he’s gone. That’s how contracting works. Been there, done that.
Lot’s of ‘authors’ have help, particularly if they’re not professional authors already.
Hawaii completely computerized their birth records back in 2001. All they issue now is the Certification of Live Birth, which is a computer printout of part of what’s in their database. They don’t make copies of the original birth certificate any more. They may even have destroyed them after entering the data into the database. Why store redundant paper?
And there are plenty of people associated with his life who are still alive.
Pay attention to the facts, do some research (facts, not baseless accusations from the fringe) and GROW UP!
And I’ve probably got more service time than you do.
[...] we did a story about an Army Major who filed suit regarding his deployment to Afghanistan on the grounds that Obama was not America’s legitimate Commander-In [...]
Twitchy wrote:
“I’ve never seen the images at the Daily Kos, since I don’t have any reason to go there. I have seen the images at factcheck.org. They are hi-res photos of an actual document. Apparently the people from FactCheck have seen the original, since they took the pictures of it. I would guess that the Daily Kos got their image from the same place that FactCheck got the document they photographed, the Obama campaign.”
This still doesn’t meet the evidence test of any COURT. The document HAS never been examined by document EXPERTS for authenticity. Obama’s legal teams does’t seem to trust the document because they have NEVER presented it to a court.
Twitch wrote:
“Why would the Obama legal team need the CoLB? All they have to do is ask any court to uphold existing law, and the case gets thrown out. There is no evidence to support any of the allegations against BO. Practically the very definition of frivolous lawsuit.”
The Obama legal team has consistently avoided the very simple solution of producing a document which they seem to have no problem showing to FACTCHECK.ORG but ARE reluctant to show to a court. And you are fine with this?
Why would Obama’s legal team avoid the central issue and fight these cases on procedural issues? Perhaps it’s because it’s the ONLY legal course that they have.
Twitch wrote:
“As far as authenticity, the photos show a document that’s exactly like many other documents issued by the State of Hawaii. It has the official signature and the official raised seal. Just as it is, it is prima facie evidence of the truth of the information it contains. The State of Hawaii has confirmed that they have BO’s BC “on record” (which could mean that it’s just a row in a database), and has never stated that the CoLB is not a legitimate document.”
You make my point, thanks! Prima facie evidence needs to be authenticated and that has never been done. I for one do not put ANY stock in documents posted on websites that claim to be proof; I want to see documents submitted to a court as evidence and that BOTH sides of the issue have had ample opportunity to have their experts examine them.
Showing a document for a few minutes to a single organization does not pass the smell test let alone evidence standards held by our courts.
The Berg case was one of the first cases last year to challenge President Obama’s elgibility to be President and it was filed by a Democrat. Mr. Berg stated numerous times that he would drop the case if Obama’s legal team would produce the COLB. They didn’t. Yet you are willing to accept as fact that the COLB is authentic because some non-experts from a website saw it and say all is well?
Why would Obama’s campaign let FACTCHECK.ORG “look” at the COLB yet refuse to do the same when sued?
It seems to me that they do NOT want the document examined document experts. And that makes me very suspicious.
Until President Obama allows independent document experts examine the COLB that they were willing to show to FACTCHECK.ORG these lawsuits will continue.
If this were an issue about George W. Bush’s COLB, the press would be DEMANDING that he produce the COLB for their experts to examine. The silence of the press here is deafening.
Salvaterra
“Why has Obama paid Perkins Coie law firm over $1 million to keep his documents sealed? http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaLawsuits.htm
Why on the first day of his presidency did Obama sign an Executive order (#13489) that basically sealed any official documents he does not want released to the public?”
That is something that all politicians do. Contrary to his slogan, he is no different from the rest of them. This is a case of business as usual. I would give an example but it would be verboten.
As for Corsi’s detention, there is clearly a cult-like following for Obama there and he made it known why he was there. That would be the first mistake. The second would be attempting to give money to Obama’s half-brother. If he had not greased the right palms, his detention could have been the result of someone wanting a cut. I’ll admit that my analysis is speculative just as Kenya is part of a international conspiracy is speculative.
“The fact that liberals came up with the stupid term “birther” …”
I’m going to admit I did not do my homework on that. I was under the mistaken impression that was the accepted term. Would “truther” be a more acceptable term? If not, what is?
Re: “if this didn’t have any merit don’t you think the Army would tell Major Cook that his deployment would stand in spite of his challenge?”
It seems that Major Cook volunteered to go to Afghanistan in May (you remember that Obama was president in May). Then he went back on that offer. The Army simply decided that it no longer wanted to have an officer serving in Afghanistan who would volunteer for the job in May and sue to not be sent there in July.
There are many reasons. One is that an officer who says something in May and the reverse in July may be indecisive. Another is that to volunteer for something and then go back on it is, at the least, using the ability to volunteer for combat for other motives.
So, it decided not to force him to go to Afghanistan to serve with other officers who had not misused their right to volunteer for combat.
A. Kelly on July 17th, 2009 12:04 pm
Greg Goss on July 16th, 2009 1:15 pm Hate to tell you this, but McCain never had any problems with citizenship. The rules for children of military member born overseas are considered natural born citizens.
Kelly, maybe you didn’t realize there was a link above. I have inserted it again below.
Why Senator John McCain Cannot be President: Eleven Months and a Hundred Yards Short of Citizenship
Twitchy,
“1. The State of Hawaii has stated that they stopped issuing copies of the Certificate of Live Birth (the original long-form birth certificate) sometime after 2001, when they computerized all those records, and now all you can get is the Certification of Live Birth, which is just what it says it is, a certification that the information on it comes from Hawaii’s official records. It’s not even clear that the original paper certificates even exist any more.”
You mean that even THEY don’t know if they have the original paper certificates? Come to think of it, if they “computerized” all of those records, wouldn’t it seem strange if they DIDN’T enter ALL of the information on the original paper certificates? Just because now all that they “issue” is the short-form doesn’t mean that the original RECORDS still exist, whether in paper or digital form. Given this, it would seem that the President of the United States would be able to at least ACCESS and PRODUCE for public analysis the information on his original long-form birth certificate. If not, then who in the world WOULD EVER have access to their own original birth certificate (long-form)?
“The Hawaii Dept. of Health (DoH) said that they had BO’s information ‘on record’, which could simply mean that it is recorded in their database. Either way, it doesn’t matter what he authorizes, he can’t get the original long-form birth certificate.”
Okay, you answered some of my above questions. But don’t you realize just how ridiculous the answers are? “Either way,…,he CAN’T GET the original long-form birth certificate”??? Yet the Hawaii DoH likely STILL HAS IT?? Utterly incomprehensible.
“2. Why should he release his college records? Why is it any of our business?”
Because there are sincere and legitimate and widespread concerns about his eligibility to be President, and those records could provide evidence that would help in determining his eligibility. Beyond this, the man wanted to be PRESIDENT – why WOULDN’T it be “any of our business”? As voters, we should have the right to know about as much of a presidential candidate as we could. And he’s certainly not shy about promoting and talking about himself – after all, he authored TWO books before he was 40, even though he wasn’t any sort of CELEBRITY at that time. Yet he doesn’t want the voting public to know any of the specifics regarding his college career?
“3. I don’t know anything about his Senate records.”
Neither does anyone else outside of the Senate, apparently.
“4. That would be the Department of Hawaiian Homelands, and, no, they never said that they wouldn’t accept the Certification.”
Yes, they did. I read their statement (and understood it).
“What they said was that applying for a native Hawaiian homestead using the Certification would delay the application, and cost more.”
Yes, they said it would “delay” the application; but that “delay” would be INDEFINITE if the person applying didn’t eventually use the long-form Birth Certificate. That was ABSOLUTELY clear from their ORIGINAL statement on their website. And the reason they gave was that the Certification didn’t have information that the long-form Birth Certificate did, and to proceed with the application required that extra information contained on the long-form Certificate. (Again, I READ their original statement [and understood it].)
“It was never clear why that would be so, since the only criteria was 50% or more native Hawaiian ancestry. Perhaps it was due to simple bureaucratic inertia. I would guess that that page of their website just didn’t get updated when the DoH stopped issuing copies of the Certificate of Live Birth, sometime between 2001 and now. If you’ve ever been involved with maintaining documentation, you’ll know how common that is. This mess probably brought that to someone’s attention and they had it fixed.”
That’s possible. But it certainly doesn’t explain why that requirement was there IN THE FIRST PLACE. The only explanation is what that website gave originally, which is as I mentioned: The long-form Certificate contains information which the short-form Certification does not, and they had deemed that that extra information on the long-form was necessary to prove certain things about the applicant.
@Twitchy
I know you liberals like to recycle, but recycling my comments doesn’t really make you look smart (and it won’t stop global warming).
You obviously didn’t read the information through the link I sent. There is a document posted by a lawyer for that law firm that threatens a former Air Force colonel to withdraw his appeal of his eligibility case against Obama.
As for the Executive order, it covers “Presidential records” according to US Code which includes any documentary materials that relate to or have an effect on the carrying out of the constitutional duties of the President. His birth certificate would fall under such a definition and you can bet that he would invoke this definition if he were being seriously challenged to release it.
It’s funny that you want to pick every little detail apart, but you don’t want to look at the body of evidence which shows a very sneaky Obama who has something to hide.
@Terrant
I hope you continue coming back to comment.
Applying a term to the people who are asking questions about this issue is designed to label or brand them and then beat up on and make fun of the brand in order to make other people want to disassociate with anyone branded, in this case, a “birther”. It is a fallacious line of attack on a group of people instead of their argument. So to answer your question, don’t label the people, just address the argument.
Anthony,
As I posted earlier, WND had experts examine the document (or the images of the document, it’s not clear which), and they found nothing to indicate that it wasn’t genuine.
And, again, why would BO’s lawyers want to present the document to a court? That would only encourage more birther activity. “He blinked, go get ‘im.” As long as they continue to treat it as frivolous BS, there’s little additional encouragement. Not that that “bunch of group thinking sheep that will bleat out any slogan that comes down the pike in unison” (to use Salvaterra’s words) needs any encouragement. Mobs on witch hunts seldom do. And conspiracy wackos are not known for their ability to grasp facts.
Prima facie evidence does not need to be authenticated. It can be rebutted, but only with better evidence. Without that rebuttal, it stands on its own.
Berg is a long-time conspiracy wacko. You can go to factcheck.org and examine the hi-res photos they made of the document yourself (the original image on Obama’s campaign website looked like it was quite lo-res, maybe 100 pixels/inch). Of course, there’s some risk in saying that. I’ve seen idiots look at perfectly normal optical effects and claim they were evidence of fraud.
And these lawsuits will continue regardless of any evidence that’s produced. One of the hallmarks of conspiracy theorists is that any facts that don’t fit their theories must be part of the conspiracy. That’s what makes them a “bunch of group thinking sheep that will bleat out any slogan that comes down the pike in unison”. It’s the same for political extremists and fringers at both ends of the spectrum (which is, IMHO, an inaccurate way of depicting politics, but that’s another subject). Fanatics don’t care about facts.
smrstrauss,
Quite the contrary. The Army didn’t have to make any such decision. The Major was a reservist and volunteered for duty in Afghanistan. As such, he had the right to have his orders revoked right up until he was supposed to report for duty.
Once he filed for a restraining order, the Army, quite rightly, took that as a request to have his orders revoked. They merely followed his wishes.
Douglas J. Bender,
Why should BO have to produce a “long-form” certificate, or the data from it, when no one else in the entire country is required to do so for any reason? Or when the information on the short form is sufficient to prove that he’s a natural-born citizen?
Why would anyone ever need access to the additional information on their long-form birth certificate?
There’s nothing in his college records that could conceivably have any bearing on his eligibility to be President. Yes, I’ve heard the wild theories. That’s all they are.
You apparently did not read the original DHHL webpage very well. It said nothing about any “indefinite” delay “if the person applying didn’t eventually use the long-form Birth Certificate”. What it said was “Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL.”
AAMOF, href=http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:Veru1NU4Zf0J:hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/Loaa%2520Ka%2520Aina%2520Hoopulapula.pdf+Loaa+Ka+Aina+Hoopulapula&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us>here is an archive copy of the pamphlet that appears to be the source for the webpage. If you go down to the bottom, you’ll see the publication date of “August 2000″. The DoH computerized birth records in 2001 and stopped issuing the Certificate of Live Birth sometime after that. That would seem to support my theory that the webpage simply didn’t get updated until recently.
I’m still wondering what possible relevant information, for DHHL, could be on the Certificate that’s not on the Certification.
Try that one more time.
AAMOF, here is an archive copy of the pamphlet that appears to be the source for the webpage.
Close enough. 7;-]
Salvaterra,
Thanks for the laugh. Calling me a liberal, I mean. That’s more evidence of your inability to see anything other than black and white.
Executive Order 13489 simply restored Executive Order 12667, which President Reagan issued. Was Reagan part of some conspiracy to put Obama in the Presidency?
And Bush’s Executive Order 13233 revoked and replaced Reagan’s order, and was revoked by Obama’s order restoring Reagan’s order.
I “pick every little detail apart” because the “body of evidence” is made up of those little details. Picking apart the details shows that most of the “body of evidence” consists of ignorance, wishful thinking, urban legends, disinformation and outright fraud. There’s very little in the way of facts, evidence or reason.
Twitchy,
WND never had the actual COLB document in their hands. They must have looked at the web images. So I don’t trust their findings either. Nor would a court accept it, not even a Small Claims Court.
I’m not sure if you have ever been in a litigation that required experts examine a document to determine its authenticity but I have. What they do is examine the document and compare it to a second (or third, maybe a forth) document that is (are) known to be authentic. This (these) is (are) known as the ‘control’ document(s). Each team gets the document in question and has their team do the examination. So far this has never happened.
For the COLB to be examined this way, one party would have to challenge the authenticity of the document presented as documentary evidence to a court. Since the COLB has never been submitted to a court, the authenticity of the COLB has NEVER been proved nor can it be challenged.
Simply looking at a document without a known control document to compare it to does little to determine if it is a forgery. Just because it looks good doesn’t mean it’s real. Example: CBS News used forged documents in their story on Bush being AWOL. On the surface they looked good by themselves. When compared to control documents from the era it was clear that they were forged.
Consider this:
The document shown on FACTCHECK.ORG is NOT the same document image that the Daily KOS has posted. The FACTCHECK document clearly has been FOLDED yet on the Daily KOS image there are no creases showing.
http://www.factcheck.org/UploadedFiles/birth_certificate_2.jpg
http://images.dailykos.com/images/user/3/BO_Birth_Certificate.jpg
So we have two different documents the purport to be the same one.
I am also suspicious of FACTCHECK.ORG. FACTCHECK.ORG is owned/run by the Annenberg Foundation. Senator Obama was the first Chairman of the Board of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, which was a Division, or Project, of the Annenberg Foundation. Not hardly an ‘independent’ organization. The do lean left.
Twitchy Wrote:
Prima facie evidence does not need to be authenticated. It can be rebutted, but only with better evidence. Without that rebuttal, it stands on its own.
Yes, you are right. My bad. What I meant to say was that with the seal on the COLB it would be self-authenticating evidence and would need to be challenged. Of course, given President Obama’s strategy of NEVER submitting the COLB as evidence, no one can make the challenge.
President Obama can post all the images he wants of his COLB on the web and NONE of them would pass as evidence in a litigation. Surley you will agree to this point.
As to Berg, what he has doen in the past really doesn’t matter. What does matter is that he said he would drop the case if President Obama sumited his COLB to the court for examination. President Obama refused to submit his suposed CLOB to a court. Who is hiding what?
Thus far no court has ruled that President Obama is a natural born citizen. If he submitted the COLB to a court and a judge rulled that he is a natural born citizen, I think the cases would stop as long as truly independant experts examined it under our rules of evidence and stated that it was genuine.
Until that happens, no one has seen a genuine copy of the President’s COLB.
So I ask you, where’s the birth certificate?
Twitchy,
“Why should BO have to produce a ‘long-form’ certificate, or the data from it, when no one else in the entire country is required to do so for any reason?”
Because no one else in the entire country is President and fighting growing questions as to their eligibility and background.
“Or when the information on the short form is sufficient to prove that he’s a natural-born citizen?”
It is NOT sufficient. Hawaii became a state in 1959. Obama was born in 1961. There were many people born in Hawaii at that time who were not born in any hospital; and some individuals were born in other countries but as new-borns were “resettled” in Hawaii. It is my understanding that during this period (1959 to at least 1961) such children were granted “Certifications” based solely on the word of their parents or guardians (after all, what else could the officials do in such a situation?). Thus, it is possible that Obama was born in Kenya, was resettled to Hawaii after a few days when his mother relocated to Hawaii, and then his mother applied for a “Certification”, giving his place of birth as “Honolulu” (in order to give him U.S. citizenship, or natural born citizen, status).
“Why would anyone ever need access to the additional information on their long-form birth certificate?”
In order to attempt to VERIFY the claims of actually being born in Hawaii, which the Certification does not do. The long-form Certificate would contain information such as who the attending physician was, and in which hospital the child was born. Both pieces of information could go a long way to verifying the truth of the matter.
“There’s nothing in his college records that could conceivably have any bearing on his eligibility to be President. Yes, I’ve heard the wild theories. That’s all they are.”
Baloney. They aren’t “wild theories”; they might be UNLIKELY, but they certainly aren’t “wild”. And, if you HAVE actually “heard” the theories, you would very well know that you are absolutely incorrect in saying “[t]here’s nothing in his college records that could CONCEIVABLY have any bearing on his eligibility to be President”. In this case, I have to say you have been caught in a lie: Either you HAVEN’T actually heard those theories (in which case you are lying when you say that you have); or you have read those theories, but are lying that they couldn’t even “conceivably” have a bearing on Obama’s legitimacy as President. One of the more prominent of those “wild theories” (as you describe them) is that Obama’s college records (specifically, those from Occidental College, I believe) MIGHT show that he received financial aid AS A FOREIGN STUDENT. If so, this WOULD, or very well COULD, have a very direct bearing on Obama’s presidential legitimacy.
“You apparently did not read the original DHHL webpage very well. It said nothing about any ‘indefinite’ delay ‘if the person applying didn’t eventually use the long-form Birth Certificate’. What it said was ‘Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL.’ ”
True. But if the short-form Certification required “ADDITIONAL VERIFICATION”, then it IN ITSELF wasn’t sufficient as proof of qualification for that program, whereas the long-form Certificate was.
Oh, and Salvaterra, do you really believe that Obama’s campaign paid a million dollars to send out one letter?
Anthony Oresteen (July 18, 2009 at 4:14 p.m.),
Excellent, clear, and to-the-point post, Anthony.
Douglas J. Bender,
“fighting growing questions as to their eligibility and background.”? Don’t you mean ignoring a bunch of conspiracy theorists and witch hunters, with no facts, evidence or reason on their side? Face it, the birther movement has been going at this for over a year and all they’ve come up with is a series of transparent frauds.
The Certification of Live Birth is not an original document. All it is is certification that the information on it comes from the official database of the Hawaiian Department of Health. Nobody “grants” you a Certification. The Certification says he was born in Honolulu, therefore that’s what the official records say.
And if someone did release BO’s long form, and it had the attending physician and the hospital on it, birthers would be demanding to see the hospital’s records, and to talk to the attending physician. Given that this happened 48 years ago, the attending physician is probably dead, and most hospitals, as far as I know, don’t keep such records for more than 20 years or so. The birthers would say that that’s all part of the conspiracy, and the long-form didn’t prove anything. So there’s nothing for BO to gain by releasing the long-form.
Want to check your local hospital and see how long they keep birth records, or medical records in general?
How could Obama have received aid as a foreign student? He lived in Hawaii from age 10 on, and graduated from high school there. Since colleges always want your HS records, it would be pretty difficult to apply as a foreign student. Even if he did, how would that prove that he actually had foreign citizenship, instead of, and not in addition to, US citizenship? He lost his Kenyan citizenship at age 21, because Kenya doesn’t allow dual citizenship for adults, so he was a dual citizen until then. So what? And Indonesian law made it impossible for him to be an Indonesian citizen. So, wild theories.
As for the DHHL, I’m still waiting for someone to explain what information was on the long-form that wasn’t on the short form that was needed to prove that one had 50% or more Hawaiian ancestry. Looking at the example that WND came up with, there doesn’t seem to be anything. That still looks like some bureaucratic BS. Perhaps just a “that’s not the way we’ve always done it” reaction to the introduction of the Certification.
Anthony Oresteen,
“The document shown on FACTCHECK.ORG is NOT the same document image that the Daily KOS has posted. The FACTCHECK document clearly has been FOLDED yet on the Daily KOS image there are no creases showing.”
Put something with a light crease in a flatbed scanner, with the weighted lid down on top of it, and scan at a low resolution, like 100 DPI. You likely won’t see any sign of the crease either. There’s just not enough detail in the scan to show it. And the document at the Daily Kos appears to be the same one that Obama’s campaign posted. Looks like it was originally about 300 DPI, but has been scaled down to about 60 DPI. So the original image may have shown traces of the creases, but the scaled down image is unlikely to.
Still no reason for BO’s lawyers to show the Certification. They’re doing fine without it.
“If he submitted the COLB to a court and a judge rulled that he is a natural born citizen, I think the cases would stop as long as truly independant experts examined it under our rules of evidence and stated that it was genuine.”
Either you’re not really a birther, or you’re not very honest with yourself. Facts mean nothing to fanatics, which describes conspiracy theorists. Likely they’d just claim that the experts were either bought or fooled in some way.
Could someone please tell me if “African” was used to describe a persons “race” on a state or federal document back in 1961?
Thank you for your help.
And now it seems even more certain that the Major Cook case was a setup: “Today I spoke on the phone with Maj. Cook’s attorney, Orly Taitz who claimed that she was first contacted by Maj. Cook in February 2009…. Ms. Taitz also stated that Maj. Cook signed a consent letter in February 2009 which authorized her to represent him against President Obama.”
So Maj. Cook appears to have conspired with Ms. Taitz to create the situation. His volunteering in May seems to have been simply another birther fraud.
Richard,
There don’t appear to have been any standards back then. Hawaii has stated that they put down whatever the parents said. Barack Obama, Sr., was from Kenya, so “African” makes perfect sense.
Oh yeah Twitchy, I’m really out of line assuming that you are liberal. You have basically acted as Obama’s legal representative on this blog. Anyway it’s my bad because there are prominent liberals who are questioning Obama’s eligibility as well.
No one knows exactly what is in the archives about Obama, or how his lawyers would interpret the law if pressure was applied to release specific documents. The point as raised in the today’s post is that it is very curious that with everything going on at the time he took office, he chose to sign this EO on his first day as president.
If the documents exist that prove Obama was born in Hawaii, then at best his arrogance is unprecedented. But people have a right to ask the questions they are asking about proof of citizenship because Obama has not proven anything with his Certification.
The case of Major Cook is what sparked our interest in this story and I do not believe it is over yet with him. They say they are filing another suit in Florida, because the Georgia judge doesn’t want to touch it either. No matter what the outcome of all of this is, the buck passing and deflecting that is going on by all three branches of govt. is pathetic.
Twitchy,
“You quote that, Hawaii has stated that they put down whatever the parents said. ” For the race of the child at birth.
Could you reference that for me , please, about what Hawaii has stated. Thank you
Also, I am a bit confused about reports that Obama has been quoted on different occasions being born in different hospitals.
Could someone verify or post more info about this discrepancy.
Thank you
I just wanted to clarify something from yesterday afternoon. I said that only the “nuts” would speak out about the birth certificate controversy because they have the least to lose. Joel W. seemed to object, saying that perhaps the “nuts” are really “patriots.” I do agree with him. Our independence was achieved by men who had everything to lose, yet they pressed on.
It is obvious to the rational mind that Mr. Obama is hiding something important. I think we need to stop arguing with those who are committed to brushing off common sense and move ahead.
My question for anyone who wants to get the truth out:
Is this fight winnable?
I’m going to be honest here. I’m Anonymous because there are a lot of bad people out there. Look at what happened to “Joe the Plumber.” Barack Obama used the “bully pulpit” of being the Democratic nominee to slander and ridicule an honest American. Honest, not perfect, but not malevolent. Now that Mr. Obama has the apparatus of the executive branch, 33 “czars”, 15 cabinet leaders, and the IRS at his disposal, how can we possible win the struggle to get to the truth?
A funny attribute of the man who occupies the White House is that he is lauded for never “losing his cool” or getting upset. To me, it shows a lack of passion and a lack of core values. It also makes me wonder if he is so insulated by his group of “sponsors” and feels comfortable knowing that he will be cared for, no matter what. How could we have a president who is so “calm”? Doesn’t that run counter one of the basic personality traits that brings so many presidents to power – the ambition and hunger to get there, succeed, and prove something to the world. It seems we have a man in the White House who has the requisite arrogance but very little of the type of political ambition we have come to expect from our leaders. Say what you will about Hillary, but she gets irritated and angry because things matter to her. The same holds true with other politicians.
Whatever the case may be, I’d really like some feedback from someone, who like me, knows he’s hiding something.
Can we win this battle? Please don’t respond if you think Mr. Obama is a traitor, or if you think he is the most charismatic, intelligent man ever to work in the Oval office.
The truth is what it is: something is being covered up. Maybe it’s that he is a Muslim, or whatever.
At this point, with the power structure in the United States being what it is, including the mass media, talk radio, and the internet,
Can we get the truth exposed?
We don’t even know where the TARP money is . . . Can concerned citizens compel exposure of the personal records of the most powerful man in our political system. Or, do we have to wait for historians to reveal this 20, 30, or 40 years from now?
Richard, you can find information about the switching of the alleged hospital of birth at WND.COM.
The “birthers” will be known in the history books, as the True Americans who stood up for TRUTH and preserving the American Constitution…The document that makes this country the most coveted place to live in the world…The one that obama, ironically has called a “fundamentally flawed” document…
They will also be known as the ones who saved their country’s destruction from the hands of the anti-American president…
In his campaign, obama promised to utterly destroy this country, financially, morally, spiritually, and militarily….I heard him loud and clear, that is why I fought and will continue to fight so hard, day and night, to tell every one I can about obama’s true agenda..
If Mr. red diaper baby and his obots, hates this country and all she stands for…why are you here???
“The Constitution is either a superior, paramount law, unchangeable by ordinary means, or it is on a level with ordinary legislative acts and, like other acts, is alterable when the legislature shall please to alter it. If the former part of the alternative be true, then a legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law; if the latter part be true, then written constitutions are absurd attempts, on the part of the people, to limit a power in its own nature illimitable.
“Thus, the Constitution is either The Supreme Law of the Land, superceding all other laws, or the Constitution is a worthless piece of paper. If the latter, government can do as it pleases. If the former, tyrants have seized sovereignty illegally, it is the duty of the people to put them in their proper place in history.”
—- Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, John Marshall-1803
“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” … John Adams
msimmons, you are right on message. I always struggle to understand whether disregard for our Constitution is a matter of lack of intelligence or of a willed stubbornness. The same is true of basic economic principles – how can otherwise intelligent people misread empiric economic data and draw the conclusion that higher taxes will help get us out of this recession?
How about disregarding the need for a sovereign acreage and control of our borders? When we can’t agree on that, how can we expect to agree about the need to have a president whose loyalties to our country are undivided. Of course, Article II cannot guarantee a president’s allegiance to the well-being of our nation, but it seems to be a pretty good start. If that’s what we all agreed upon, and no law has been enacted to change it, then why look the other way now?
Twitchy,
“The Certification of Live Birth is not an original document. All it is is certification that the information on it comes from the official database of the Hawaiian Department of Health.”
Okee-dokee.
“Nobody ‘grants’ you a Certification.”
Right – there’s a fee for it.
“The Certification says he was born in Honolulu, therefore that’s what the official records say.”
I don’t doubt that. But the point is that if he was born in Kenya, then “resettled” as an infant in Hawaii, and his mother claimed FOR him a birth in Honolulu, the “official records” WON’T show a hospital or attending physician; whereas if he was actually born in Honolulu, the “official records” almost certainly WOULD show both of those pieces of information.
“And if someone did release BO’s long form, and it had the attending physician and the hospital on it, birthers would be demanding to see the hospital’s records, and to talk to the attending physician.”
So? You would prefer that we “birthers” blindly accept everything this administration tells us? You want people to become mindless zombies without the capacity or motivation to test the claims of a known liar? (By the way, the more you use the term, “birther”, the more you sound like Robert Gibbs – juvenile, and desperate to deflect questions you cannot or don’t want to answer via mockery and condescension.)
“Given that this happened 48 years ago, the attending physician is probably dead, and most hospitals, as far as I know, don’t keep such records for more than 20 years or so.”
Yeah, everybody just give up, because it’s so unlikely that your searches will be fruitful. Stop all your investigative pursuits, and accept your benevolent but deceitful overlord. Make things easy on yourselves.
“The birthers would say that that’s all part of the conspiracy, and the long-form didn’t prove anything.”
It’s amazing that for someone with such an obvious disgust for “birthers”, you can psychically determine their reaction.
“So there’s nothing for BO to gain by releasing the long-form.”
Other than the great increase in apparent honesty and trustworthiness he would enjoy by doing so. We wouldn’t want that, though, would we? It would go against his character and track record. Why suddenly become forthright and transparent, when being the opposite has so far been so successful?
“Want to check your local hospital and see how long they keep birth records, or medical records in general?”
I’ve thought about doing so, but the fear of being labelled a “birther” by a hospital keeps me from doing so.
“How could Obama have received aid as a foreign student? He lived in Hawaii from age 10 on, and graduated from high school there. Since colleges always want your HS records, it would be pretty difficult to apply as a foreign student.”
Well, I’m not sure how these things work. Perhaps he was officially listed as a Kenyan or Indonesian as a child (from birth, or after being officially adopted by Lolo [?] Soetoro at the age of 6 or so), and maintained that citizenship throughout his youth up until the time he applied for college, and slightly beyond.
“Even if he did, how would that prove that he actually had foreign citizenship, instead of, and not in addition to, US citizenship? He lost his Kenyan citizenship at age 21, because Kenya doesn’t allow dual citizenship for adults, so he was a dual citizen until then. So what? And Indonesian law made it impossible for him to be an Indonesian citizen. So, wild theories.”
I don’t know, and neither do you. Which is why it would be incredibly helpful for him to RELEASE HIS COLLEGE RECORDS. But I suppose the free world will collapse if he does, on principle. It’s not like presidential candidates have a moral duty to be as open and transparent with the American public as they can be.
“As for the DHHL, I’m still waiting for someone to explain what information was on the long-form that wasn’t on the short form that was needed to prove that one had 50% or more Hawaiian ancestry.”
Given that it was the DHHL itself that made the distinction, you’re best bet might be to try to contact the DHHL itself. But if you do, be warned that you will likely be labelled a “birther”, and that particular label has a tendency to “stick”.
“Looking at the example that WND came up with, there doesn’t seem to be anything. That still looks like some bureaucratic BS. Perhaps just a ‘that’s not the way we’ve always done it’ reaction to the introduction of the Certification.”
Perhaps. But should others take your conjecture as fact, or are we allowed to check more deeply without the risk of being given some mocking labels?
“your”
Douglass, I’m copying and pasting a comment I posted elsewhere.
It rebuts the “CONSPIRACY” label some want to place on the truth-seekers.
I disagree that this is just conspiracy theory now. Do you believe that it is possible that until now, no one had ever inquired further into the place of Mr. Obama’s birth?
We keep hearing that to “join little league baseball” you need a birth certificate. That’s true, or to get into school the same thing. I’d be willing to bet that those organizations don’t really care about actual birthplace. They just want to fulfill the requirements and get kids enrolled. People who generally check birth certificates are secretaries and bureaucrats. They don’t have the time or interest to question the legitimacy of birth certificates.There’s never been any need for a “conspiracy.” But, there may be that nagging fact that the birth didn’t take place in the US. No one had asked – until now.
And only one person can order the documents be released- Barack Obama.No one else.
According to you, is it still a conspiracy if only ONE person is able to control the flow of information?
Further, among the “secretaries and bureaucrats” we could probably include those in county elections offices, probably even in the political parties and maybe even in the US Senate. I’d bet they saw they same Certification of Live Birth that we see on FactCheck.org. I’d also bet that no one who has checked until now had any clue that Hawaii can “certify” births that did not take place on their soil.
And nobody looking at the COLB cared because they were just doing their job, making sure the forms were filled out right and that the paperwork got photocopied, stapled, and filed just as they were trained to do. Then they can take their coffee break, get out of the office on time, pick up their kids, and get to the grocery store.
It’s no conspiracy. It’s just people going about their lives.
Douglas
We all need to get the word out about the March On The Capital in D.C on Sept. 12th, It will start at the Lincoln Memorial……… All those who love their freedoms, need to stand united agaist the dictatorships that are rising up against ‘we the people’…
obama is dividing this country along class and racial lines that have been over come,for most, throwing this nation backwards… I resent this!! His commie upbringing has taught him that you can’t gain power with out ‘victims’… He is just exploiting his supporters by using class warfare and the race card to pit people against one another…We are better than that…
Abraham Lincoln fought against these despicable tactics and so should we…
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong;”
“You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer;”
“You cannot build character and courage by taking away man’s initiative and independence;”
“You cannot further the brotherhood of man by encouraging class hatred;”
“You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.”
—–Abraham Lincoln
Salvaterra,
You continue to demonstrate your black-and-white thinking. If I’m not 100% with you, I must be a liberal. What a hoot!
As far as the EO, his apparent intent was to rollback Bush’s more restrictive order, and return to Reagan’s standard. What, don’t you like Reagan? 7;-]
Major Cooks case is clearly just another fraud, like many perpetrated by birthers desperate to have something to use against Obama. He seems to have started plotting it in February, when he agreed to let Ms. Taitz represent him, before there was even a case.
Even more obvious that the whole birther movement is a frantic attempt to attack Obama out of fear.
Richard Koch,
Update, August 26: We received responses to some of our questions from the Hawaii Department of Health. They couldn’t tell us anything about their security paper, but they did answer another frequently-raised question: why is Obama’s father’s race listed as “African”? Kurt Tsue at the DOH told us that father’s race and mother’s race are supplied by the parents, and that “we accept what the parents self identify themselves to be.” We consider it reasonable to believe that Barack Obama, Sr., would have thought of and reported himself as “African.” It’s certainly not the slam dunk some readers have made it out to be.
Do you know what hospital you were born in, without looking it up? I only do because I’ve looked it up several times recently.
Twitchy, your argument with regard to U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark is only relevant if the discussion is about the junior Obama’s citizenship as it pertains to his father’s citizenship, i.e. someone claiming that Barack Obama II, having been born in Hawaii to a foreign citizen could not be considered a US citizen. That would be ludicrous.
However, if Barack, Jr. had been born on foreign soil, it seems that all bets are off.
As I see it, U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark would work more against John McCain every becoming president. A resolution in the Senate cannot supersede the US Constitution.
If we accept your assertion,
“Neither the majority opinion nor the dissent makes a distinction between “natural born” or “native born”,
then both Vattel and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark seem to be irrelevant.
Then where do you turn?
Where would you find in the Constitution that a child born on foreign soil to one US citizen and one non-citizen is considered a “natural-born citizen”? I don’t think the Constitution supports that position.
Maybe Barack Obama wrote some articles about that at Harvard. All we have to do is just check . . . riiiiiiiiight. (Just kidding).
Seriously, I’m not saying that he definitely was not born in Hawaii. I’m just asking, “Where would you stand if it were proven that he had not been?”
msimmons,
The birthers will be known to history as wackos, who cared nothing for truth or the Constitution, but only used those as pretexts for their fear and hatred.
Witch hunt. Lynch mob. Frauds.
Everybody can seek the adicmaic records of anybody else. They are required for some jobs and more. For the record this is what a credible university will produce regarding anybody’s enrollment.
Major or if you are deciding
Criminal Record
Name
Address
Country and date of birth though some schools make it optional
Year, Semester, and status of enrollment
and High School or GED and ACT/SAT information.
For the record, some honest people will put in the country of their birth in a college application if they were born in said country.
Most college transcripts will list everything in this way:
Name
Date of birth
Location of birth if provided and should be in a US State to qualifying parents.
and your grades including high school gradulation information, and grades from other colleges or universities.
Douglas J. Bender,
I use the term birther because, like other conspiracy theorists and fanatics, birthers have no respect for truth or facts, so there isn’t much you can do with them except ridicule them. I present facts and evidence to convince those who are not birthers not to fall for their frauds.
There’s no need for psychic abilities. The psychology of conspiracy theorists is well established, and I haven’t seen anything so far to make me think that birthers are not conspiracy theorists. They’ve been at this for over a year, and, so far, all they’ve come up with are a number of transparent frauds, such as the current Major Cook case. No facts that stand up to any kind of examination, no evidence, no examples of people who were born elsewhere, but have Hawaiian birth certificates that say they were born in Hawaii. Nothing but delusions.
Like your statement that he was officially adopted by his stepfather. I haven’t seen any evidence for that either. Yet it seems to be gospel among birthers that he was and that that made him an Indonesian citizen.
Why would he want to encourage wackos by giving into them?
And I’ve yet to meet a birther that was actually interested in checking into the facts. They all seem to want to simply wallow in their fantasies and trade them with other birthers. And express their fear and hatred of Obama.
KR,
Funny, but, typically, the only people who label themselves as “truth-seekers” are conspiracy theorists who actually care nothing about the truth.
Twitchy,
Please at least respond to my question/ hypothetical:
. . . a child born on foreign soil to one US citizen and one non-citizen
. . . considered a “natural-born citizen”?
Where would you stand?
KR,
It is ludicrous, but many birthers are making just that argument.
However, the Constitution does not define “natural born”. U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark does. However, I would think that Congress can, to some extent, define what “natural-born” means. And they have done that, at least with respect to people who were born overseas to one or more U.S. citizens.
If the Kenya scenario turned out to be true? According to the law at the time, his mother was too young to have passed citizenship to him. However, I’ve been told that that law was retroactively changed a few years later. I haven’t been able to confirm that yet. If that’s true, then the whole point is moot. If not, then he’s not technically eligible.
However, there is, so far, zero evidence for a birth in Kenya.
Twitchy,
On YouTube, there was video with a voice-over alleged to be Grandma in Kenya. She supposedly says he was “of the village” or something of the sort, translated to say that he was born there. There’s no way I can affirm or deny that type of “evidence”. It could have been produced by the same guy who was going to sell the “Kenyan birth certificate” on eBay.
We are way into Clearance Thomas/Anita Hill territory with this issue. There are extremists on both sides, willing to throw everything into the debate, haters on both sides. Conspirators and racists on both sides.
I really am seeking the truth. And the one UNDENIABLE fact is that Mr. Obama won’t let us look into his records. He may just be a good politician – control the debate, don’t let your opponent define you. Or he may be the CONSPIRACY OF ONE.
Also,
Mr. Obama complied with the law at the time of his campaign. Those following the Kenyan birth hypothesis probably couldn’t go back and raise the burden of proof retroactively.
Denying him citizenship because his mother wasn’t old enough to bestow citizenship on him would also be ridiculous. If that were the case, the law I would guess it could easily be declared unconstitutional. Why would such a law be passed except to discriminate against someone and deny them or their children of their rights?
KR,
Take a look at http://www.obamaconspiracy.org. It’s one of several sites presenting the other side. Lots of links to other sources.
And not all laws ever passed in this country have been either benevolent or rational.
Twitchy,
“I use the term birther because, like other conspiracy theorists and fanatics, birthers have no respect for truth or facts, so there isn’t much you can do with them except ridicule them.”
And what term should we use for someone who prefers to use ridicule rather than reason? “Truther”?
“I present facts and evidence to convince those who are not birthers not to fall for their frauds.”
Combined with ridicule and labels applied to those who disagree with you. Nice.
“There’s no need for psychic abilities.”
But you do not deny that you are psychic?
“The psychology of conspiracy theorists is well established, and I haven’t seen anything so far to make me think that birthers are not conspiracy theorists.”
Perhaps that’s because you PREFER to think that those who have doubts about Obama’s legitimacy are conspiracy theorists (it certainly would make your job easier if that’s all they are). To me, it sounds more like you have formed a biased opinion that all such people are conspiracy theorists and nutjobs, in spite of clearly contradictory evidence. By doing this, YOU have engaged in the same sort of behavior you attribute to those conspiracy theorists. Maybe you are just projecting, eh?
“They’ve been at this for over a year, and, so far, all they’ve come up with are a number of transparent frauds, such as the current Major Cook case. No facts that stand up to any kind of examination, no evidence, no examples of people who were born elsewhere, but have Hawaiian birth certificates that say they were born in Hawaii.”
And Obama himself could take credit for much of that. (And the Major Cook case, even if he planned the whole thing in order to challenge Obama, doesn’t amount to a “fraud”. And it certainly wouldn’t be evidence of any cowardice on Major Cook’s part.) And there are plenty of various sorts of evidence that stand up to examination, besides the type that are quite suggestive of Obama’s guilt (such as his stonewalling and shrill mockery of the issue, and his hiding of all of his potentially relevant records). But it’s only been a little more than a year – that’s actually not that long in trying to resolve such a thing.
“Nothing but delusions. Like your statement that he was officially adopted by his stepfather. I haven’t seen any evidence for that either. Yet it seems to be gospel among birthers that he was and that that made him an Indonesian citizen.”
I’d have to go back and check, but my understanding is that there is strong evidence for believing he was adopted by his stepfather. I suppose one would be that his official name at the time was “Soetero” and not “Obama”, but that’s just supposition on my part.
“Why would he want to encourage wackos by giving into them?”
Oh, come off it. MOST of those with concerns about this issue are FAR from “wackos”, and you know it. But it’s a lot easier to label someone, and then discount them because of that label, than to actually respond to their concerns. In this regard, you fit right in with the Robert Gibb’s school of condescending scorn. And that’s not a compliment, by the way.
“And I’ve yet to meet a birther that was actually interested in checking into the facts.”
Baloney, again. (Which is actually almost exactly a title of a song by Mark Knopfler, my musical “hero”.) You are getting desperate. You may have correctly assessed us, but we refuse to allow the truth to get in the way of our plans to overthrow Obama!!! We will not be denied!! And even if we are, we will still pout and complain loudly!
“They all seem to want to simply wallow in their fantasies and trade them with other birthers. And express their fear and hatred of Obama.”
It’s fun. You should try it. Much better than listening to Robert Gibbs, for example.
Twitchy wrote:
“Put something with a light crease in a flatbed scanner, with the weighted lid down on top of it, and scan at a low resolution, like 100 DPI. You likely won’t see any sign of the crease either. There’s just not enough detail in the scan to show it. And the document at the Daily Kos appears to be the same one that Obama’s campaign posted. Looks like it was originally about 300 DPI, but has been scaled down to about 60 DPI. So the original image may have shown traces of the creases, but the scaled down image is unlikely to.”
You make my point. The documents have NEVER been put to the test by independent document experts and under the rules of evidence. So you HAVE to admit that what is posted is no proof at all and that there is reasonable doubt to their authenticity.
Twitchy Wrote:
“Still no reason for BO’s lawyers to show the Certification. They’re doing fine without it.”
That is correct. President Obama doesn’t want to put his COLB to the test. As long as he doesn’t have to produce the document in a court of law he is free and clear. He is not being ‘transparent’ with the citizens of the USA. And that is exactly why people are upset with this. If he didn’t have anything to hide, why not let a court look at his COLB?
Twitchy Wrote:
“Either you’re not really a birther, or you’re not very honest with yourself. Facts mean nothing to fanatics, which describes conspiracy theorists. Likely they’d just claim that the experts were either bought or fooled in some way.”
On the contrary you are the one who will not admit to the facts or are honest with yourself. The facts are that President Obama has been sued over 30 times about his birth place. He has never presented his COLB to a court for examination yet he let a friendly website look at it? Pure logic dictates that there is something about his COLB that President Obama does not want revealed; otherwise he whould have released it. Argue what you like but you cannot dismiss the failure to allow a court to examine his COLB as a conspiracy theory or dismiss someone as a fanatic who simply wants to have a fair and open examination of the document that is the basis of the claim that President Obama is a natural born citizen.
I am ONLY focused on verifying the document that President Obama choose to put out as his COLB to the Daily KOS and FACTCHECK. ORG. I have never supported any of the other theories or claims as I deal with facts only. I am not a ‘birther’. I am a constitutionalist.
I’ll finish with a final thought. In ANY of the 30+ cases has President Obama’s legal team ever argued that President Obama is a natural born citizen? Or have all the filings thus far focused on getting the cases dismissed on procedural issues?
I’ll let you do the research and show us where his legal team has submitted a brief to a court that argued that President Obama is a natural born citizen.
I have made my case. Accept it or reject it as you may but I will respond no further. Thanks for the debate!
Let me be brief. You can visit my website for the proof.
The State of Hawaii confirmed that they NEVER PRODUCED a 2007 COLB for Obama, date-stamped “June 6, 2007.”
Obama had TWO FORGERIES made, one of which is a fabricated image: that bogus “scan image” which appeared on the now, nonexistent website, “Fight The Smears.” FTS is not the only website being scrubbed of all birth records by Obama. There are, at last count, three hospitals reported to be Obama’s place of birth!
The second forgery was a physical fabrication that appeared on Factcheck in a series of photographs.
There are nothing but bogus birth certificates for Obama, and, in creating and distributing false identification documents across the naton, Obama, his Administration, and Factcheck committed felony document fraud, election fraud, voter fraud, Internet fraud, and interstate fraud solely for the purpose of deceiving the American public and members of Congress and the Judiciary, that he was born in Hawaii.
Obama was NOT born in Hawaii, and no amount of tongue-wagging by the liberal Left is going to change that fact.
Let me state it again:
Obama’s 2007 Certification of Live Birth is a NONEXITENT DOCUMENT. Obama does not have, nor has he ever had, a real 2007 Certification of Live Birth.
Twichty,
You wrote back to me:
“Do you know what hospital you were born in, without looking it up? I only do
because I’ve looked it up several times recently.”
Twichty, just a little condescending, don’t you think ??
I just ask a simple question for information.
Sincerely,
Capt. Richard Koch
@Twitchy
I never said anything like this, “If I’m not 100% with you, I must be a liberal.” If you say you are not then fine. I said that you cannot be surprised that I would assume as much because you so desperately defend and make excuses for Obama.
You also say, “And if someone did release BO’s long form, and it had the attending physician and the hospital on it, birthers would be demanding to see the hospital’s records, and to talk to the attending physician.”
Where do you get that from? If he produced a legitimate long form you know this issue would go away. This is what I’m talking about with you being so picky with the evidence on one side of the issue. He may have been born in Hawaii and he may not have been. You can’t know for sure from what has been offered by Obama to this point, but you act as though you are sure.
I am following the story of Major Cook. I haven’t developed an opinion on him as of yet. If he is a fraud like you say, then he stands to get into a lot of trouble for what he did – as my understanding goes. More than just getting fired from his civilian job. It is possible that his case can get a lot of things into the public record relating to the subject of Obama’s eligibility in a way that cannot just be dismissed by a judge. And that is worth paying attention to.
Many of the commentors here assume that a hospital or attending physician are required for a birth. An iconoclast like BO’s mother could easily have shunned modern medicine and had a natural, unattended birth. Where then would a birth certificate come from, whether in Hawaii, Kenya, or anywhere else.
Douglas J. Bender,
“And what term should we use for someone who prefers to use ridicule rather than reason? ‘Truther’?”
Actually, that’s a term I’ve seen birthers apply to themselves. I prefer to use reason, but if reason is totally ignored, what else is left, but ridicule?
“To me, it sounds more like you have formed a biased opinion that all such people are conspiracy theorists and nutjobs, in spite of clearly contradictory evidence.”
What “clearly contradictory evidence”? And I don’t think “all” birthers are “conspiracy theorists and nutjobs”. Many are just ignorant and gullible.
Cook is a fraud. His whole case is based on being forced to go to Afghanistan. Well, he volunteered for that duty, after engaging Orly Taitz as his lawyer, and filed a lawsuit when all he had to do to revoke those orders was ask. How is that not a fraud? And I said nothing about cowardice, that’s your addition. See why I think you’re a conspiracy theorist?
So far I haven’t seen any evidence in support of any birther theory that stands up to close examination.
“I’d have to go back and check, but my understanding is that there is strong evidence for believing he was adopted by his stepfather. I suppose one would be that his official name at the time was “Soetero” and not “Obama”, but that’s just supposition on my part.”
The whole thing is supposition, based on the fact that, when he was 6, his stepfather registered him at school under the stepfather’s last name. No official paperwork for an adoption, nothing that proves anything except that the stepfather used his name, instead of the actual father’s name, for the child.
“MOST of those with concerns about this issue are FAR from “wackos”, and you know it.”
No, I don’t know that. Most of you believe the most outrageous things, about Obama, about birth certificates, about Hawaii, and about the law. And I’ve been presented with the silliest fables imaginable, that even a bit of research outside of birther sources disproves. This whole thing is the equivalent of an email chain letter, that spreads and mutates without any regard for the truth. Gullible people and people with an agenda. A witch hunt.
I’ve even ’spoken’ with two people who claimed to actually have recently issued Certificates of Live Birth from Hawaii, even though the DoH claims they aren’t issued anymore. One, who claimed that it was his BC, sputtered about problems with his scanner when I asked if he would send me a scan of it, then disappeared from the forum. The other just keeps reposting the claim, and won’t offer proof of anything. I keep telling her that, if there was such a thing, there would be photos of it posted all over the internet. Every birther website would either post an image, or link to it. What do we have instead? Nothing. Zero. Zip.
Every birther claim I’ve heard is much the same. Zero evidence. Just “He won’t tell us what we need to incriminate him. That means he’s guilty. Guilty! GUILTY!” Completely irrational.
Anthony Oresteen,
Just one question.
Has any other President, or candidate, even been asked to have his birth certificate examined in a court of law? Ask yourself: Why this one? Why the witch hunt?
OK, three questions. 7;-]
Please explaind the rational behind the following:
“Congressional hearings were held to determine whether Sen. John McCain was constitutionally eligible to be president as a “natural born citizen because he was born on a military base in a foreign country to Admiral & Mrs. McCain,” no controlling legal authority ever sought to verify Obama’s claim to a Hawaiian birth.”
Twitchy,
“No, I don’t know that.”
Well, you should.
“Most of you believe the most outrageous things, about Obama, about birth certificates, about Hawaii, and about the law.”
Hardly. Most of us just want concrete answers, rather than mockery and avoidance and lack of transparency.
“And I’ve been presented with the silliest fables imaginable, that even a bit of research outside of birther sources disproves.”
So far I have seen little of that, actually.
“This whole thing is the equivalent of an email chain letter, that spreads and mutates without any regard for the truth. Gullible people and people with an agenda. A witch hunt.”
No, I don’t think anyone has claimed that Obama is a witch. And I think the technical, legal, term in his case would be “wizard hunt”. But on a more serious note, you are completely wrong about this, as Anthony Oresteen has shown, and as I will remind you in my following post.
“I’ve even ’spoken’ with two people who claimed to actually have recently issued Certificates of Live Birth from Hawaii, even though the DoH claims they aren’t issued anymore. One, who claimed that it was his BC, sputtered about problems with his scanner when I asked if he would send me a scan of it, then disappeared from the forum. The other just keeps reposting the claim, and won’t offer proof of anything. I keep telling her that, if there was such a thing, there would be photos of it posted all over the internet. Every birther website would either post an image, or link to it. What do we have instead? Nothing. Zero. Zip. Every birther claim I’ve heard is much the same. Zero evidence. Just ‘He won’t tell us what we need to incriminate him. That means he’s guilty. Guilty! GUILTY!’ Completely irrational.”
So you’ve encountered one liar and one confused individual on the Internet. How shocking. But of course that means that ALL who question Obama’s legitimacy are also liars or confused. However, there is plenty of evidence, or rather the lack thereof, which suggests that Obama is hiding something. What you are asking for is proof, and of course that would be difficult to provide given Obama’s extreme reticence.
I am getting sort of jealous that you have a handy and convenient single term to use to castigate those who disagree with you about Obama’s legitimacy. So I’ve decided to make up my own term for those who oppose my views (well, for those who use that handy and convenient term to castigate us, anyway). After much soul-, and Internet-, searching, I think I’ve come up with an adequate descriptor, one which succinctly conveys the opposition’s character and attitude: “Kooler”. It makes everything so much simpler.
Salvaterra,
No, I’m not desperately defending BO. I have serious doubts about his policies and actions so far. I just don’t like frauds, which, so far, is all I see in the birther movement. Like I told Douglas, the equivalent of an email chain letter, that spreads and mutates without any regard for the truth. That sort of thing pushes several of my buttons.
“If he produced a legitimate long form you know this issue would go away.”
No, some of the support for it would go away. But most of those pushing it would just claim that, no matter the facts, it wasn’t ‘really’ legitimate, and continue their witch hunt. For most birthers, it’s more of a religion than a quest for truth.
“He may have been born in Hawaii and he may not have been. You can’t know for sure from what has been offered by Obama to this point, but you act as though you are sure.”
The only evidence to date says that he was born in Hawaii. There has been no evidence presented otherwise that hasn’t turned out to be a fraud. Yet many birthers are absolutely convinced that he was born in Kenya. What does that tell you?
Cook won’t get anywhere. His whole case was based on the idea that he needed to sue to keep him from being sent to Afghanistan, when all he needed to do was ask. The premise might have been good, but Cook was not the proper person to carry it out.
Twitchy,
To restate, or perhaps rephrase, Anthony Oresteen’s very cogent point: Why hasn’t Obama released the PHYSICAL Certification of Live Birth for INDEPENDENT examination? After all, he apparently, or supposedly, released it for either “factcheck.org” or “The Daily Kos” to examine. Yet it is quite obvious that neither of those two agencies are unbiased, objective, and independent groups. Furthermore, what they presented was only a DIGITAL (whether digitally-created, or simply scanned) document, NOT an actual PHYSICAL copy.
Now, Obama has or has had up to 30 different lawsuits against him regarding the issue of the place of his birth, or his legitimacy to be President. Why has he not provided the PHYSICAL copy of his Certification of Live Birth to those courts in order to have those cases dismissed? Surely it can’t be because he wants to maintain some privacy (else he wouldn’t have [supposedly] provided a physical copy for “factcheck.org” or “The Daily Kos” to examine). And if he had done so with the FIRST few cases, the OTHERS almost certainly would have been dismissed outright, rather than wasting precious time, money, and personal resources, beyond the fact that by not producing that physical document he has created widespread doubt about his legitimacy.
You have no rational explanation for any of the above. But it’s typical for koolers to ignore the facts and to hide their heads in the sand, bleeting their trust in their leader, all the while spewing venom against those who seek to shed some light on a dark place. (Huh…I see the appeal of this sort of label/insult approach.)
Richard Koch,
“Twichty, just a little condescending, don’t you think ??”
No. Why do you think it’s condescending?
“I just ask a simple question for information.”
And I provided an explanation of why there might be some confusion.
Bill,
There was an actual controversy over McCain’s eligibility, since he was born outside the actual U.S., and the law at the time of his birth did not provide for citizenship in his case, though that was changed a few years later.
There’s no evidence to support the witch hunt against Obama. It’s much the same as the campaign that claimed that Chester A. Arthur was born in Canada or Ireland, instead of Vermont.
Douglas J. Bender,
Why should I believe that most of those with concerns about BO’s eligibility aren’t wackos, when 90% of the posts I see, most places, are full of ignorance, hate and fear, and almost totally lacking any real facts or logic?
“So you’ve encountered one liar and one confused individual on the Internet.”
No, I’ve encountered dozens, indeed, most of those who post on the subject fall into either one of those two categories, or the terminally partisan. Those were just two examples.
“However, there is plenty of evidence, or rather the lack thereof, which suggests that Obama is hiding something.”
All there is is a lack of any evidence to counter the evidence that he was born in Hawaii. The fact that people use that to claim that he’s “hiding something” is another indication of conspiracy theories. And an indication of a lack of respect for the Bill of Rights.
Your position is, basically: “I’m sure our neighbor poisoned our cat.”
“What makes you think so?”
“Well, he won’t admit to it, so I’m sure he’s hiding something.”
Does that mean I’m “kool”? 7;-]
Douglas J. Bender,
Actually, what FactCheck posted were photos of a physical document, not scans. And FactCheck has a fairly good reputation, except among both the right and left fringes, which is because neither fringe wants the truth.
Anybody can file a lawsuit. They don’t need evidence to file, and wackos file frivolous lawsuits all the time. Rather than discouraging them, taking them seriously only encourages more wackos to give their favorite crackpot theory a try in the courts. It would be my guess that the legal theory being used is that getting them dismissed on the basis that they’re frivolous on their face is more effective at discouraging even more lawsuits than getting one decided in Obama’s favor.
Also, how many of those lawsuits have been based on the birth certificate issue? It’s my understanding that many of them are based on wacko legal theories about natural born citizenship, not birthplace.
Twitchy,
“Your position is, basically: ‘I’m sure our neighbor poisoned our cat.’ ‘What makes you think so?’ ‘Well, he won’t admit to it, so I’m sure he’s hiding something.’ ”
No, that’s not my position. (Besides, I don’t particularly like cats. I’m more of a dog person.) My position is more akin to: “I’m sure my neighbor is doing drugs.” “What makes you think so?” “Because every time I ask if he is, he denies it while fighting off invisible pink wackos.”
“Does that mean I’m ‘kool’? 7;-]”
No. “Kooler” is strictly a noun – there is no adjectival (hey, maybe I made up another word) form. And as the person who invented the word, I must insist on consistent usage of that word until it (hopefully quickly) enters the common lexicon.
@Twitchy
“The only evidence to date says that he was born in Hawaii.”
Evidence is not necessary Twitchy. Obama can prove your case with one document and he chooses not to do so. That is pretty good evidence that he is hiding something.
Douglas J. Bender,
“fighting off invisible pink wackos” would be evidence. You don’t have anything that firm.
The people cannot be all, & always well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.
Thomas Jefferson
So Jefferson would think that the birther movement has a good side. However, I wonder what he would think of the character of much of the birther rhetoric, the hate and fear that is at the heart of much of it.
OK, so the ‘quote’ tag doesn’t work here.
Salvaterra,
And which document is that?
Twitchy said:
‘msimmons,
The birthers will be known to history as wackos, who cared nothing for truth or the Constitution, but only used those as pretexts for their fear and hatred.
Witch hunt. Lynch mob. Frauds.”
Far better to be a ‘birther’ than one of the “naive ones”….
I would much rather see the so called ‘evidence’ handled and verified by several ‘real’ experts..than to be a sappy, “naive one” who believes a Chicago laywer/politician-crook’s photocropped birth record…ya know…the NUT who wants ACORN to do the 2010 census ??@#$#@!! And you call me a WACKO??…(if ACORN comes knocking on my door, i’ll let my pitbull answer it for me)
If you’re happy being a sap and a sucker, by all means…believe the ‘image’ certification is all the proof one needs to become POTUS….they say ‘one’ is born every day..
Only *astard/counterfeit ‘Americans’ would except anything less than the long form vault birth certificate….as well as his passports, school and law records…only the ‘naive ones’ lack the common sense to recognize the FACT that other people have the SAME document , stating they too were born in Hawaii, even though they were born abroad…
Obama is the one who HAS a history of caring nothing about truth nor the “fundamentally flawed” Constitution..It is HIS contempt toward truth seekers, that is causing fear..and his ‘followers’ are the hatemongers who call the faithful Americans wackos…These are the ones who will be found to be frauds…obama will be known as the man who pulled off the biggest con-job in history…
As far as your witch hunt, lynch mob comments…..these only stem from your victim mentality….It is a real sob story that obama will have to produce a legitimate BC or confess he is a fraud..BOO HOO HOO…
msimmons,
Well, you’re certainly one of the partisan wackos, aren’t you.
Has any other U.S. President ever been required to show proof of birthplace? Any other Presidential or Vice-Presidential candidate? Much less “long form vault birth certificate….as well as his passports, school and law records”?
“only the ‘naive ones’ lack the common sense to recognize the FACT that other people have the SAME document , stating they too were born in Hawaii, even though they were born abroad…”
Facts? Examples? You know, reality, rather than your paranoid delusions.
An article from WND doesn’t meet the reality test.
“It is a real sob story that obama will have to produce a legitimate BC or confess he is a fraud.”
He’s already produced “a legitimate BC”, the only one that the State of Hawaii issues at the current time.
Barack Obama seems to have complied to the letter of the election laws in order to reach the presidency. I seriously doubt that there is a law that says ANYONE has to provide the “long form” of the birth certificate to hold any public office in this country.
He may have been born elsewhere (of course there is no proof of that), but even if that were the case, he was smart enough to keep is mouth shut.
What is he supposed to do?
When you get pulled over by a police officer, what do you say?
“Yes officer, I was speeding, and before you saw me, I sort of rolled through a stop sign because I was dialing my cell phone.”
It’s Barack Obama – 1 the rest of us chumps – 0.
Can we please get back to talking about him being a Muslim?
Thank you.
KR
“Can we please get back to talking about him being a Muslim?”
Wouldn’t talking about him being a Manchurian candidate be more topical to this thread?
Re: “smrstrauss, no other President had a Grandmother who said he was born in Kenya.”
His grandmother did not say that he was born in Kenya. She said that he was born in Hawaii. Listen to the complete tape. http://www.obamacrimes.info/Telephone_Interview_with_Sarah_Hussein_Obama_10-16-08.mp3
(Be sure to listen until the answer to the question: “Wherabouts was he born?’
If that is too difficult here is the transcript. http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/obamatranscriptlulu109.pdf
Re: “Obama can prove your case with one document and he chooses not to do so. ”
Unless he has a copy of the original birth certificate sent to his parents, he can only show the birth certificate that Hawaii sends out to everyone. http://www.starbulletin.com/features/20090606_kokua_line.html
However, that birth certificate has been confirmed by the two officials who looked into the file and said there was an original birth certificate in it, and at the time Hawaii did not allow foreign birth certificates to be filed.
Re: “the FACT that other people have the SAME document , stating they too were born in Hawaii, even though they were born abroad…”
This is not true in two ways. First, and most important, it was not possible to register a foreign birth in Hawaii when Obama was born. That was allowed in 1982, more than twenty years after he was born.
Second, even now, now that foreign births are allowed to be registered provided that the parents have lived in Hawaii for a year before the birth, the law does not allow the Hawaii birth registration to lie. Thus it allows a Hawaii birth document to be issued, but if the child were born in, say, New Mexico, the Hawaii birth document would say : “Hawaii certification of live birth: Location of Birth: New Mexico.”
Obama’s Certification says that he was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, and the accuracy of the document has been confirmed by the two officials who looked into the file and said that there was an original birth certificate in the file, and this in term was stated to be a confirmation of birth in Hawaii by the Department of Health spokeswoman. http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/11/obama_hawaaianborn_citizen_for.html
I ask again.
Have any of you ever considered the possibility that the reason why he / they (DEMS) are using this COLB instead of a long form are because they want to SET LEGAL PRECEDENT for the acceptance of a COLB as proof of citizenship for all the illegal aliens that they desperately need to make legal Democrat voters? It’s obvious that they cannot pass amnesty legislation without committing political suicide. This does it for them….
It seems as though all of you are locked into this single thought pattern.
OK Twitchy, I said I would’n repsond anymore but you asked a new question and you are wrong once again:
Anthony Oresteen,
Just one question.
Has any other President, or candidate, even been asked to have his birth certificate examined in a court of law? Ask yourself: Why this one? Why the witch hunt?
I love it when you tee it up for me to knock it out of the park!
Yes, there has been a case before that a presidential candidate’s birth certificate was examined by a court of law. Eldridge Cleaver ran for president in 1968. He was too young (34) and a California court rulled that he was in fact too young to be president based on the Constitution and took him off the ballot. And, yes, Mr. Cleaver produced his birth certificate for the Californian court to examine.
Satisfied?
Following the Constitution doesn’t make for a witch hunt.
Twitchy wrote:
So far I haven’t seen any evidence in support of any birther theory that stands up to close examination.
“Close Examination”? Are you for real?
You base your conclustions that President Obama was born in Hawaii on a COLB that has never been subjected to “close examination” by independant experts. You have no proof that the COLB document is genuine.
One more time: Documentes published on web sites are NOT proof and do NOT meet the standards of evidence in our court system.
I have stated here many times that the COLB has never been examined yet you still accept it as the gold standard.
My theory is on very solid ground. Let’s examine the document. as see what it shows. And let’s due it under the rules of evidence.
Now I am realy done! No more replies!
If I were Arnold Schwarzenegger, I’d come out with a strong statement about the birth certificate controversy, jack up the fee for birth certificates, and encourage everyone to “protest” by ordering the “long form” of their birth certificate, maybe two or three to burn at rallies and Tea Parties. That $24 billion hole would be filled, and maybe he could get an amendment passed to be the second president born in another country.
PD,
“Have any of you ever considered the possibility that the reason why he / they (DEMS) are using this COLB instead of a long form are because they want to SET LEGAL PRECEDENT for the acceptance of a COLB as proof of citizenship for all the illegal aliens that they desperately need to make legal Democrat voters?”
The COLB is already legal proof of citizenship. It’s good for any legitimate government purpose, if it has the raised seal and signature, You can use one to get a job, a passport or a drivers license.
Twitchy,
“The COLB is already legal proof of citizenship. It’s good for any legitimate government purpose, if it has the raised seal and signature, You can use one to get a job, a passport or a drivers license.”
Just how long do you plan to ignore Anthony Oresteen’s point about Obama’s Certification of Live Birth never having been independently and physically examined? Do you think ignoring the point will make it go away?
Anthony,
“Yes, there has been a case before that a presidential candidate’s birth certificate was examined by a court of law. Eldridge Cleaver ran for president in 1968. He was too young (34) and a California court rulled that he was in fact too young to be president based on the Constitution and took him off the ballot. And, yes, Mr. Cleaver produced his birth certificate for the Californian court to examine.”
Not the same thing. There was no question that Cleaver’s BC was valid. The California Secretary of State refused to let Cleaver on the ballot because of his admitted age. Cleaver appealed and lost. He wasn’t dragged into court by a bunch of wackos with no facts or evidence of any sort on their side.
“Following the Constitution doesn’t make for a witch hunt.”
No, but manufacturing a controversy where there isn’t one dies.
Sorry, that should be “does”, not “dies”.
Polarik,
Sorry, but “No one in our office confirmed it” is not the same as “The State of Hawaii confirmed that they NEVER PRODUCED a 2007 COLB for Obama”.
Then there’s “A separate WND investigation into Obama’s certification of live birth utilizing forgery experts also found the document to be authentic. The investigation also revealed methods used by some of the bloggers to determine the document was fake involved forgeries, in that a few bloggers added text and images to the certificate scan that weren’t originally there.”
Were they perhaps talking about you in that last sentence?
Jessy,
As it happens, I’ve been helping my wife gather together transcripts and school records for her new job. Every school, so far, requires a written request, signed by the person whose records they’re requesting.
Anthony Oresteen,
“My theory is on very solid ground. Let’s examine the document. as see what it shows. And let’s due it under the rules of evidence.”
Do you understand what “prima facie” means. You have no rational reason to doubt the CoLB, just a bunch of what have all, so far, turned out to be fabrications. Get some actual evidence on your side, and I’ll support you. So far, it remains a witch hunt, which any honest and rational person would abhor.
Twitchy,
“Do you understand what ‘prima facie’ means.”
As for me and myself, not really. I have watched some “CSI – Miami” shows, though. Does that count?
“You have no rational reason to doubt the CoLB, just a bunch of what have all, so far, turned out to be fabrications. Get some actual evidence on your side, and I’ll support you. So far, it remains a witch hunt, which any honest and rational person would abhor.”
Do you realize how irrational and unreasonable you sound? (I imagine not.) Here, let’s play “Pretend”. I’m going to pretend I’ve been elected President, but that there are millions of people who have doubts about my eligibility. I’m also going to pretend that I have (for some reason I can’t imagine) already presented my Birth Certificate for a couple of sites friendly to me to examine, whereupon they post images of that Certificate online. I’m further going to pretend that I have (for some reason I still can’t imagine) refused to allow an independent examination of that Certificate.
Now, in this “Pretend” scenario, if I am also going to pretend that I am honest and forthright and transparent, and genuinely concerned with the people I govern, then what will I do in the face of increasingly vocal and widespread doubts about my legitimacy? Fight the release of my Certificate, using the courts and technicalities and millions of dollars, or simply say to myself, “Hey, I’ve got nothing to hide. And besides, I already revealed a physical copy of my Birth Certificate to two websites. What’s the harm in presenting it again, this time to independent examiners? Heck, this is probably my best opportunity to assuage those doubters. I might even gain some votes in doing so.”? I know what I would do. But then again, I’m just a fanatical wacko.
In July/Aug. 2008, Phil Berg filed his case against obama AND the Dem. National Committee so they are all in this together…..
Quote from Israelinside.com Aug. 4, 2008……
“Meanwhile, Bill Clinton made an intriguing turn of phrase when he said, during a trip to Africa: “I never was mad at Sen. Obama,” the former president said. “I think everybody’s got a right to run for president who qualifies under the Constitution. And I’d be the last person to begrudge anybody their ambition.” Even Snopes has accepted that Obama cannot qualify for the presidency based on his mother’s citizenship. He must be born in the United States to be a “natural born citizen.”…End quote……
Quote from citizenwells.wordpress.com Jan. 7, 2009……
In an affadavit signed January 5, 2009 by Roland Burris, he states:
“I am a resident of the State of Illinois, at least 30 years of
age and a natural born citizen of the United States of America.”
Well, well, well, it seems that Mr. Burris is more qualified to be
president than Barack Obama. Is that why Democrat “leaders” are
having a change of “heart”?
End quote……..
Quote from WND Dec. 3, 2008……………
“An associate lawyer in a Chicago-based firm whose partner served on a finance committee for then-Sen. Barack Obama has advocated for the elimination of the U.S. Constitution’s requirement that a president be a “natural-born” citizen, calling the requirement “stupid” and asserting it discriminates, is outdated and undemocratic.
The paper was written in 2006 by Sarah Herlihy, just two years after Obama had won a landslide election in Illinois to the U.S. Senate. Herlihy is listed as an associate at the Chicago firm of Kirkland & Ellis. A partner in the same firm, Bruce I. Ettelson, cites his membership on the finance committees for both Obama and Sen. Richard Durbin on the corporate website. ”
And……..
“Herlihy’s published paper reveals that the requirement likely was considered in a negative light by organizations linked to Obama in the months before he announced in 2007 his candidacy for the presidency.
“The natural born citizen requirement in Article II of the United States Constitution has been called the ’stupidest provision’ in the Constitution, “undecidedly un-American,” “blatantly discriminatory,” and the “Constitution’s worst provision,” Herlihy begins in her introduction to the paper titled, “Amending the Natural Born Citizen Requirement: Globalization as the Impetus and the Obstacle.”
End quotes…………….
Quote from Orly Taitz Lightfoot V. Bowens case………
” In 1968, the Peace and Freedom Party submitted the name of Eldridge Cleaver as a qualified candidate for
President of the United States. The then SOS, Mr. Frank Jordan, found that, according to Mr. Cleaver’s
birth certificate, he was only 34 years old, one year shy of the 35 years of age needed to be on the ballot as a candidate for President. Using his administrative powers, Mr. Jordan removed Mr. Cleaver from the ballot. Mr. Cleaver unsuccessfully challenged this decision to the Supreme Court of the State of California, and, later, to the Supreme Court of the United States. Similarly, in 1984, the Peace and Freedom Party listed Mr. Larry Holmes as an eligible candidate in the Presidential primary. When the then SOS checked his eligibility, it was found that Mr. Holmes was similarly not eligible, and Mr. Holmes was removed from the ballot.”
End quote…………..
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=104599
Twitchy,
My point with it being accepted as a “legal document” to prove citizenship is this.
Since virtually anyone can get one with an affidavit signed by witnesses stating where ,when they were born, I bet you there will be lots of Mexicans applying for COLB .
There can really be only two reasons why Obama has refused to provide his “papers”
First It’s possible that he actually is NOT naturally born here and is not qualified.
Second He was born here, but chooses not to provide, because it make lots of people look like conspiracy alarmists and like I said is using the easy to get COLB to set legal precedent as an accepted document in court for someone to prove citizenship.
Don’t forget 2010 is coming fast and Obama is driving away the independents in droves. The Dems need new voters to maintain their power.
Re: “There can really be only two reasons why Obama has refused to provide his “papers””
Obama has posted and shown to FactCheck (where it is shown in great detail) and Polifact his official birth certificate. The Certification of Live Birth is now the official birth certificate of Hawaii, and it is the only one that Hawaii sends out. http://www.starbulletin.com/features/20090606_kokua_line.html
In 1961, when Obama was born, it was not possible to file a foreign birth certificate in a Hawaiian birth certificate file, and Obama’s original birth certificate (which is in the file) was issued four days after his birth, so the document cannot be a certification of Hawaiian birth (which requires a one year delay) or a delayed birth certificate either.
There is only one reason why Obama does not show this original birth certificate, he cannot get it. Since Hawaii sends out only the Certification, unless Obama has kept a copy of the original sent to his parents at the time of birth and not lost by him, the only thing that he can show is the document that Hawaii sent him, and it sends out only the short-form Certification.
smrstrauss,
Even assuming that everything you say is correct (which I myself don’t believe), then you still have no explanation for why Obama will not allow independent individuals or agencies to examine his Certification of Live Birth, especially given the numerous lawsuits seeking to have Obama prove his eligibility. An online “document” is far from the same thing, and should in no way be considered sufficient “proof”.
smrstrauss:
Are you reading what you are saying?
Lets’s set aside for a moment that Factcheck is financially supported by the Annenberg foundation (look it up, I’m not going to do all of your work for you, are you serious???
…”and Obama’s original birth certificate (which is in the file)…”
“There is only one reason why Obama does not show this original birth certificate, he cannot get it. ”
“Cannot get it.”
This man, for better or worse, IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!
And you are trying to tell me that he cannot get Hawaii to release his original birth certificate which you claim is on file?
smrstrauss on July 21st, 2009 1:49 wrote”
“Obama has posted and shown to FactCheck (where it is shown in great detail) and Polifact his official birth certificate. The Certification of Live Birth is now the official birth certificate of Hawaii, and it is the only one that Hawaii sends out. http://www.starbulletin.com/features/20090606_kokua_line.html”
Yawn. No court will accept a web posting as proof. President Obama has never submitted his COLB to a court for LEGAL review. The web posting is NOT proof.
smrstrauss on July 21st, 2009 1:49 wrote:
“There is only one reason why Obama does not show this original birth certificate, he cannot get it. Since Hawaii sends out only the Certification, unless Obama has kept a copy of the original sent to his parents at the time of birth and not lost by him, the only thing that he can show is the document that Hawaii sent him, and it sends out only the short-form Certification.”
Absolutely WRONG. Chiyome Fukino (the Hawaiian offical over birth records) said she has “personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.”
Note the word ORIGINAL. The State of Hawaii has stated officially that they have the ORGINAL birth certificate on file; President Obama only has to ask for it.
A neighbor of mine just took his kids to visit a family member in county jail. Guess what the guards told him the kids needed in order to get in…
An original copy of their birth certificates!! They won’t accept anything else including social security cards.
Carl
“Lets’s set aside for a moment that Factcheck is financially supported by the Annenberg foundation (look it up, I’m not going to do all of your work for you, are you serious???”
Actually, FactCheck is funded by Annenberg Public Policy Center and Flora Family Foundation. It is an unrelated project to the Annenberg Challenge (although under the same umbrella when you get to the top). Leonore Annenberg, who was heading everything at the time of the election, endorsed McCain. Looking at her wiki article, it seems to me to have that she was a republican. It does not make sense to me that the Annenberg Foundation to be in the tank for Obama.
I’ve been subscribed to their RSS feed for over a year. Personally, they seem to be pretty balanced (not perfect) on their analysis; certainly better than any news network. If anything, I think they get a bit pedantic.
Ironically, the far lefties dismiss FactCheck because it is “in the tank for conservatives”.
Terrant
We can debate who Factcheck is in the tank from now until hell freezes over, let’s try and focus on my main point.
Can ANY of you Obama defenders on here seriously expect anyone to believe that the President of the United States, an office considered by hundreds of millions of people throughout the world to be the most powerful position on Earth, that he can’t get the state of Hawaii to release his original birth certificate?
Carl
You are dismissing the findings of FactCheck because Obama served on the Annenberg Challenge. That is part of the main point that you was making. I just presented facts about FactCheck and my opinion as to why I disagree. I was simply adding to the debate.
To address what you think I should be addressing, I agree with you that if push comes to shove, Obama can get Hawaii to produce the long form. I don’t buy the argument that he cannot. This is in spite of the fact that Hawaiian officials said that they will not treat him any differently. He is simply choosing not to do so because a court has not forced him to do so.
First of all, there’s no legitimate reason to doubt the validity of the CoLB that Obama’s campaign has published for all to see. Nobody has presented any evidence that justifies a court demanding to see it. All that has been presented is a bunch of wild theories and fabricated evidence. So far, birthers appear to be driven by politically-motivated urban legends and flat out lies. Not something a court is likely to look on favorably.
Why is Obama treated differently than any other Presidential or Vice-Presidential candidate in our history?
Giving in to a bunch of politically-motivated wackos, especially when you know they are not going to change their minds, no matter what the facts are, sets a bad precedent.
FactCheck is abhorred by both extremes, precisely because it tries to be nonpartisan.
There are no “widespread doubts” about Obama’s eligibility. There’s a small group of conspiracy theorists, and a larger group of ignorant and gullible sheep. There is no spending millions of dollars to protect the ‘real’ birth certificate. Again, how much have other presidential candidates spent on legal expenses after the last few campaigns? Bush? Gore? McCain? How is Obama’s spending out of line?
The CoLB is the official birth certificate you get when you ask the state of Hawaii for an official copy of your birth certificate. It’s an official extract of the state’s records. You get the same type of form from Missouri, among other states. It is already “an accepted document in court for someone to prove citizenship”.
30, or 100, or 10,000 frivolous lawsuits are not proof of anything. You don’t turn lies into truth by repeating them endlessly. Which is all the birthers have, lies repeated over and over and over and….
Hawaii no longer issues copies of the original Certificate of Live Birth. It’s not even certain that they still maintain the original paper documents, since computerizing all of those records in 2001. Note that they said the original was “on record”, which could mean almost anything.
And, even as President, Obama is required to obey the law, despite your fantasies. A federal court might be able to get the State of Hawaii to release whatever information they have, but I doubt that Obama can. And a court has not yet been presented with a valid reason to demand that information.
Salvaterra,
And those kids could have used a Certification of Live Birth with the appropriate signature and raised seal.
Orly Taitz points out in her case, Lightfoot v. Bowen that:
“The only way to know where Senator Obama was actually born is to view Senator Obama’s original birth certificate from 1961 that shows the name of the hospital and the name and signature of the doctor that delivered him.
From August 21, 2008, for over two months, Senator Obama has refused to provide his original birth certificate, even though, in his book, Dreams of My Father, page 26, he states, “… I found the article folded between my birth certificate and old immunization records…” which shows that he clearly has his birth certificate, or that he lied in his book.”
msimmons,
When did Obama say that he ever had possession of his birth certificate as an adult? What he said in the book that Orly Taitz selectively quotes from is that, when he was in high school, over 30 years ago, he “found the article folded between my birth certificate and old immunization records…” in his mother’s papers. So Taitz has no problem lying when it suits her purpose.
Terrant:
So is it your position that in spite of all the controversy surrounding this issue (look at the debate jusy this one article has spawned) Obama CAN produce his actual birth certificate, he simply chooses not to do so because no one has twisted his arm?
You’re going to have to do better than that.
Twitchy,
You aren’t related to Robert Gibbs by any chance, are you?
Think “Yes, I can”
The smallest minority is the individual, and each individual must use their own mind as the only guiding light.
Learn science and philosophy, follow Natural Law. Learn skills that you can honestly trade with others. Judge each human as an individual, by his own decent accomplishments. Do not to consume more than what you produce, do not expect it, do not ask for it, do not let others demand it, for en-mass this leads to bankruptcy.
Humans broke the chains from those that would control his mind. Humans escaped the rule of Gods, of tribes, of race, of ignorance, over the centuries.
Remember “Yes, I can”
Logic and reason have no politics, use you mind.
Twitchy,
” ‘fighting off invisible pink wackos’ would be evidence. You don’t have anything that firm.”
How about high-definition pictures of those wackos posted on the Internet?
@Twitchy
“And those kids could have used a Certification of Live Birth with the appropriate signature and raised seal.”
Yeah, maybe the kids could bring their computer monitor down to county and explain to the guards, “Look real closely at the seal! It’s raised!” I’m sure the guards – who won’t even accept an original social security card – would let them right in.
Another illustration of how you talk with authority on something you don’t know anything about.
sabastian,
“Humans broke the chains from those that would control his mind. Humans escaped the rule of Gods, of tribes, of race, of ignorance, over the centuries.”
We’ve still got a long way to go.
“Logic and reason have no politics, use you mind.”
Politics has its own logic, which is often foreign to reality. As this witch hunt demonstrates.
Douglas J. Bender,
“How about high-definition pictures of those wackos posted on the Internet?”
Go for it. Hi-def pictures of “invisible pink wackos”. That would be par for the course.
The point remains: Obama’s CoLB says he was born in Hawaii. Therefore, that’s what the source of that record, the original Certificate of Live Birth, says. Nobody has presented any evidence to rationally cast any doubt on that. Therefore no court is going to demand to examine the CoLB.
Salvaterra,
As evidenced by the pictures at factcheck.org, the CoLB is a physical document.
You seem to think that Obama should show his CoLB individually to all 300 million American citizens.
Another illustration of how wacky birthers are.
carl,
“[A]ll the controversy surrounding this issue (look at the debate jusy this one article has spawned)”. That’s a good one.
There is no real controversy. There’s a bunch of birthers, who feed off each others’ hate, fear and ignorance, and who think that they represent the whole world. There are a few others, either fascinated, or disgusted, by the phenomenon, who try to introduce facts and logic to keep the insanity from spreading. But there’s not even a ‘controversy” within the birther community. They’re all convinced that Obama is the anti-Christ.
Before you ask, I’m partly here for the entertainment value. 7;-]
Twitchy,
“Go for it. Hi-def pictures of ‘invisible pink wackos’. That would be par for the course.”
Indeed it would. And I suspect they’d have about as much evidentiary value as those high- or low- res digital images of what is purported to be Obama’s Certification of Live Birth that were posted on the Internet.
Twitchy,
“As evidenced by the pictures at factcheck.org, the CoLB is a physical document.”
Good grief, are you really that dense?
“You [Salvaterra] seem to think that Obama should show his CoLB individually to all 300 million American citizens.
You are obviously smarter than to be so deluded as to think that is what Salvaterra thinks. (How’s that for a smooth sentence?) Salvaterra’s (and other’s) point has been that no INDEPENDENT DOCUMENTARY EXPERTS have been allowed to examine the document. And the Hawaiian hospital or government officials who have claimed to have Obama’s original certificate on file refuse to reveal what exactly is on that certificate, or what sort it is (whether it is merely a “Certification”, or an actual “Certificate” complete with hospital and attending physician information). It has been carefully and repeatedly explained to you that it was possible for someone to have been born in a foreign country and yet to have obtained a Certification of Live Birth from Hawaii, saying the child was born in Hawaii, around the time Obama was born. Furthermore, Obama’s half-sister, Maya Soetoro [I think that's her name], has a Certification of Live Birth from Hawaii, stating she was born in Hawaii, yet she was born in INDONESIA (and has a birth certificate from Indonesia as well).
“Another illustration of how wacky birthers are.”
I think I’ve finally figured out what Robert Gibb’s nickname is.
Twitchy,
“As evidenced by the pictures at factcheck.org, the CoLB is a physical document.”
Good grief, are you really that dense?
“You [Salvaterra] seem to think that Obama should show his CoLB individually to all 300 million American citizens.”
You are obviously smarter than to be so deluded as to think that is what Salvaterra thinks. (How’s that for a smooth sentence?) Salvaterra’s (and other’s) point has been that no INDEPENDENT DOCUMENTARY EXPERTS have been allowed to examine the document. And the Hawaiian hospital or government officials who have claimed to have Obama’s original certificate on file refuse to reveal what exactly is on that certificate, or what sort it is (whether it is merely a “Certification”, or an actual “Certificate” complete with hospital and attending physician information). It has been carefully and repeatedly explained to you that it was possible for someone to have been born in a foreign country and yet to have obtained a Certification of Live Birth from Hawaii, saying the child was born in Hawaii, around the time Obama was born. Furthermore, Obama’s half-sister, Maya Soetoro (I think that’s her name), has a Certification of Live Birth from Hawaii, stating she was born in Hawaii, yet she was born in INDONESIA (and has a birth certificate from Indonesia as well).
“Another illustration of how wacky birthers are.”
I think I’ve finally figured out what Robert Gibb’s nickname is.
Twitchy on July 22nd, 2009 1:11 pm wrote:
“The point remains: Obama’s COLB says he was born in Hawaii.”
NO!!! You just don’t get it. An IMAGE of a COLB says that. It has NEVER been verified by a court or by independent document experts. You have no proof that the image is genuine.
Twitchy wrote:
“Therefore, that’s what the source of that record, the original Certificate of Live Birth, says. ”
WRONG again. Until the COLB document image is verified that is an unproved assumption on your part. No court would accept such a stipulation.
Twitchy Wrote:
“Nobody has presented any evidence to rationally cast any doubt on that. Therefore no court is going to demand to examine the COLB.”
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG again!! Only in your mind there isn’t. There are a few cases still pending and at least one judge has stated that the case has merit – the case currently before U.S. District Judge David O. Carter in California on behalf of Alan Keyes for one.
Any fair minded individual when presented with both sides of this issue would state that there is more than reasonable doubt about the birthplace of President Obama based on the COLB posted on the web to warrant an impartial examination of President Obama’s COLB.
You should have no problems with such an investigation because if you are correct in your beliefs, the documents will be found to be authentic. Argue as you might, NO ONE (including yourself) has ANY evidence that would sustain your BELIEFS that would pass muster in a court of law.
Stop drinking the Kool-Aid, take a deep breath, and admit that what you think you know is nothing that has been shown to be true in a court of law. The truth is that neither you or I do NOT know what the original COLB actually states. We haven’t seen nor has any court.
For everone who has been debating this issue, there will be an update tomorrow.
Carl
Well, I think that my theory is much more realistic than the theory that he has masterminded an international cover-up that involves bribing or intimidating God knows how many people (some of whom are republicans). He might be a Chicago politician but I don’t think even he is capable of pulling that one off.
Let’s look at it from another point of view. The democrats have accepted that he is natural born. The republicans have accepted that he is natural born. The courts (including SCOTUS) have dismissed all challenges that he is not a natural born citizen. If there was something to be found, I would think that either the republicans or the Clintons would have found it.
With that in mind, why should he give in to a “fringe” group especially one that will never vote for him? What would he gain from it? I can think of instances of other politicians refusing to release information (some damning, some not) that is demanded of them until the courts get involved. Like those other politicians, he is going to wait until SCOTUS says that he has to.
Terrant,
“With that in mind, why should he give in to a ‘fringe’ group especially one that will never vote for him? What would he gain from it?”
It’s not “fringe”, in the sense of having no reasonable basis. It might be WRONG, but that’s what evidence and testing and such are for, to help determine the truth.
But what would he gain from proving his legitimacy? How about some good-will and more respect from those who have sincere concerns about him? How about a clean conscience in finally directly addressing the doubts of millions of Americans? How about putting an end to all these lawsuits that are cropping up against him? How about putting some of his lawyers out of business for at least awhile, thus saving money and forcing them to find honest work? How about gaining more political support, or at least less political resistance, from millions of Americans?
Huh. That wasn’t hard. I wonder why anti-birthers can never think of these things.
@Terrant, Douglas and everyone else, we will present some additional viewpoints tomorrow.
@Twitchy
“You seem to think that Obama should show his CoLB individually to all 300 million American citizens.
Another illustration of how wacky birthers are.”
If you interpreted that from anything I have said, then you are the wacky one.
I don’t think you did interpret anything I said that way though. I think the above is just a textbook example of a straw man fallacy.
Douglas J. Bender,
“Indeed it would. And I suspect they’d have about as much evidentiary value as those high- or low- res digital images of what is purported to be Obama’s Certification of Live Birth that were posted on the Internet.”
The thing of it is, none of the arguments against their evidentiary value have any evidentiary value themselves. There’s nothing that would convince a court that there was any valid reason to doubt that those images are of an actual document.
“Salvaterra’s (and other’s) point has been that no INDEPENDENT DOCUMENTARY EXPERTS have been allowed to examine the document.”
Why should they? You’ve got nothing to indicate that the pictures are not of an actual physical document, or to indicate that it isn’t just what they claim it to be.
“And the Hawaiian hospital or government officials who have claimed to have Obama’s original certificate on file refuse to reveal what exactly is on that certificate, or what sort it is (whether it is merely a “Certification”, or an actual “Certificate” complete with hospital and attending physician information).”
They are constrained by Hawaiian and federal law as to what they can reveal. And there doesn’t seem to be such a thing as a “Certification” that would be in their files. A “Certification” simply certifies that the information on it came from their files, but the original document will be a “Certificate”. Your concept of the “Certification” is a construct of birther delusions.
“It has been carefully and repeatedly explained to you that it was possible for someone to have been born in a foreign country and yet to have obtained a Certification of Live Birth from Hawaii, saying the child was born in Hawaii, around the time Obama was born.”
And I have carefully and repeatedly asked for facts to back that up. Examples of people who were born in a foreign country around that same time and have a Certificate of Live Birth from Hawaii that says that they were born in Hawaii. As I said, you have an apparently erroneous idea of what the “Certification of Live Birth” is.
“Furthermore, Obama’s half-sister, Maya Soetoro [I think that's her name], has a Certification of Live Birth from Hawaii, stating she was born in Hawaii, yet she was born in INDONESIA (and has a birth certificate from Indonesia as well).”
I’ve seen that claim before. I have never seen any evidence to support it.
Anthony Oresteen,
“NO!!! You just don’t get it. An IMAGE of a COLB says that. It has NEVER been verified by a court or by independent document experts. You have no proof that the image is genuine.”
And you have none that it isn’t. So, barring some kind of proof that it isn’t, it stands on its own.
“WRONG, WRONG, WRONG again!! Only in your mind there isn’t. There are a few cases still pending and at least one judge has stated that the case has merit – the case currently before U.S. District Judge David O. Carter in California on behalf of Alan Keyes for one.”
And here we see the conspiracy theorist mindset at work. The judge did not say that the case had merit. He stated that he would listen to “the merits” of their case. Completely different meaning.
“Any fair minded individual when presented with both sides of this issue would state that there is more than reasonable doubt about the birthplace of President Obama based on the COLB posted on the web to warrant an impartial examination of President Obama’s COLB.”
The problem with that idea is that your side of the issue is full of blatant fraud, ignorance and legal fantasies. You have failed to raise “reasonable doubt”, except in the minds of those who are true believers.
“You should have no problems with such an investigation because if you are correct in your beliefs, the documents will be found to be authentic. Argue as you might, NO ONE (including yourself) has ANY evidence that would sustain your BELIEFS that would pass muster in a court of law.”
Funny, that’s what I just said about you. In fact, all of the existing evidence supports my beliefs. That’s why I believe as I do. You, on the other, are saying that you don’t want to believe the existing evidence, and we should investigate until we find something, anything, that supports your preconceived beliefs.
“Stop drinking the Kool-Aid, take a deep breath, and admit that what you think you know is nothing that has been shown to be true in a court of law. The truth is that neither you or I do NOT know what the original COLB actually states. We haven’t seen nor has any court.”
Sorry, I’m the one going with the existing evidence. You’re the one claiming that reality isn’t real, and chugging the Kool-Aid. A court of law is immaterial, since there is no reasonable doubt.
Douglas,
“Huh. That wasn’t hard. I wonder why anti-birthers can never think of these things.”
We have. The problem is that most of them aren’t true either. Most birthers are not influenced by facts, but by belief. To them, only facts that fit their beliefs can be true. Anything else is part of some deception. That’s why these discussions take the form they do.
“Well, his grandmother said….”
Proof that grandmother said no such thing.
“Well, WND says….”
Proof that WND is lying.
“Well, Polarik said….”
Proof that Polarik is a fraud.
“Well, his grandmother said….”
[...] recent post, Obama And His Birth Certificate Are About To Make History, as of the time this is being written, has received over 19,000 [...]
Salvaterra: “NO!!! You just don’t get it. An IMAGE of a COLB says that. It has NEVER been verified by a court or by independent document experts. You have no proof that the image is genuine.”
Twitchy: “And you have none that it isn’t. So, barring some kind of proof that it isn’t, it stands on its own.”
That’s just brilliant. So, according to your logic, a scanned copy of my birth certificate should be sufficient for me to get a passport or a driver’s license, or anything that would require my birth certificate. Zounds. I’ll just take my cell-phone PC in, show them that scanned copy, and tell them they have to accept it because they have no “proof that it isn’t” genuine.
The more I read your posts, the more I am convinced that you are intentionally misleading. Do you work for Obama?
Psalm 58:3–5
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent;
They are like the deaf cobra that stops its ear,
5 Which will not heed the voice of charmers,
Charming ever so skillfully.“
Psalm 58:3–5
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent;
They are like the deaf cobra that stops its ear,
5 Which will not heed the voice of charmers,
Charming ever so skillfully.
Douglas J. Bender,
“So, according to your logic, a scanned copy of my birth certificate should be sufficient for me to get a passport or a driver’s license, or anything that would require my birth certificate.”
Not at all. For a passport or driver’s license, there is a legal requirement that you present a physical document that meets certain standards. There’s no legal requirement to present a physical document to run for President. What Obama has presented already exceeds any legal requirement. That’s why it stands on its own. And that’s why you’re not getting anywhere in court.
Twitchy,
“Not at all. For a passport or driver’s license, there is a legal requirement that you present a physical document that meets certain standards. There’s no legal requirement to present a physical document to run for President.”
And that makes sense to you???
Douglas J. Bender,
“Psalm 58:3–5
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent;
They are like the deaf cobra that stops its ear,
5 Which will not heed the voice of charmers,
Charming ever so skillfully.”
Describing birthers? How about Proverbs 6:16-19:
16 There are six things the LORD hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.
You know, in light of the Psalm I quoted, it occursss to me that Obama hisses quite a bit when he speaksss.
It doesn’t have to make sense; it’s the law. 7;-]
Twitchy,
No, describing “Koolers” (and Obama). You know, “Birds of a feather” and all that. (Rezko, Frank Marshall Davis, Malcolm X, William Ayers, Rashid Khalidi, Blagojevich, Jeremiah Wright, Louis Farrakhan, a “forced abortion” and sterilization advocate now a “Health Czar”, Rahm Emmanuel, Robert Gibbs, Timothy Geithner, and on and on and on.
Twitchy,
The “law” is that the President must be a natural born citizen of the U.S.. There are legitimate questions about his qualification in this (given his and his parents’ histories, and the conflicting accounts, from his own camp and family, about where he was born). Those questions, should they be presented in a court of law, would NOT be resolved by the Internet images Obama has presented – no court of law would accept those images as proof of his qualification as a natural born citizen.
Your defense of Obama’s silence is based entirely on a hair-splitting legal loophole (assuming your claims have any real basis). Rather than admitting that Obama has a moral and ethical, never mind legal, responsibility to prove his eligibility, and that the Internet images he has thus far provided OBVIOUSLY are not sufficient (if such images wouldn’t be sufficient to get a mere passport or driver’s license, that should tell you something about their implicit trustworthiness), you fall back on a flimsy legal technicality that may or may not be true.
Let me know how that camel tastes, will you?
Twitchy,
Several times, you have claimed that an individual from Hawaii can no longer receive or access their Hawaiian “long-form” Birth Certificate, and that all that will be released is the “Certification of Live Birth”. Thus, you seem to be arguing that even if Obama wanted to provide his long-form Birth Certificate for others to examine, he couldn’t.
Now, even if this is true (that Hawaii will no longer release a copy of one’s long-form Birth Certificate), it is a disingenuous point. The reason is because Hawaii specifically allows for a person to request verification of the information contained on their long-form Birth Certificate, as shown by the following portion of the Hawaii Department of Health “Vital Records” page:
“Letters of Verification
Letters of verification may be issued in lieu of certified copies (HRS §338-14.3). This document verifies the existence of a birth/death/marriage/divorce certificate on file with the Department of Health and any other information that the applicant provides to be verified relating to the vital event. (For example, that a certain named individual was born on a certain date at a certain place.) The verification process will not, however, disclose information about the vital event contained within the certificate that is unknown to and not provided by the applicant in the request.
Letters of verification are requested in similar fashion and using the same request forms as for certified copies.
The fee for a letter of verification is $5 per letter.”
Thus, if the long-form Birth Certificate is still on record (hasn’t been deleted [and it is my understanding that they are on microfiche, at least in Indiana {which I verified just this morning}]), then Obama can request a “Letter of Verification” and specify verification of the following pieces of information:
City of birth: (Honolulu?)
Date of birth: (August 4, 1961?)
Hospital of birth: (Kaiopolini [spelling?] Hospital?)
Attending physician: ([Provide a specific physician's name who might have been the attending physician])
Father’s name: (Barack Obama?)
etc..
Therefore, your argument that Obama couldn’t access the information on his long-form Birth Certificate is wrong, if that long-form still exists (as it should) in the records.
And if the only “certificate” that he has on record is the “Certification of Live Birth”, then the Letter of Verification he would receive upon making his request would likely contain the following information:
Hospital of Birth: Unknown
Attending Physician: Unknown .
And this would prove that Obama DOESN’T have a long-form Birth Certificate, and that it is possible that he was born in another country.
Let the President of “Transparency” finally be transparent. Let him reveal the information on his long-form Birth Certificate, whether by an actual copy of that Certificate, or via a “Letter of Verification”. Let him do what is morally right, if not actually legally required.
Douglas J. Bender,
“No, describing “Koolers” (and Obama).”
Oh. Sorry, but based on the evidence so far, you know, “speaking lies” and “Which will not heed the voice of charmers” (paying no attention to the facts), it sounded much more like birthers.
Twitchy,
“Oh. Sorry, but based on the evidence so far, you know, ’speaking lies’ and ‘Which will not heed the voice of charmers’ (paying no attention to the facts), it sounded much more like birthers.”
To those who stop their ears so they can’t hear, I suppose it would.
Douglas J. Bender,
“The “law” is that the President must be a natural born citizen of the U.S..”
OK so far. So where is the law that defines “natural born citizen” and the requirements for proving that you are one?
“There are legitimate questions about his qualification in this (given his and his parents’ histories, and the conflicting accounts, from his own camp and family, about where he was born). Those questions, should they be presented in a court of law, would NOT be resolved by the Internet images Obama has presented – no court of law would accept those images as proof of his qualification as a natural born citizen.”
Mwahahaha! What “legitimate questions”? All you’ve got is a partisan fantasy, dreamed up by a bunch of wackos and haters. There’s nothing in his parents’ histories to create any such doubt, and the only “conflicting accounts” are in which hospital he was born. Everyone agrees that he was born in Honolulu. Based on that, you’re never going to get into a court of law, because you don’t have a case. No facts, no evidence, just lies, frauds and wishful thinking.
“Your defense of Obama’s silence is based entirely on a hair-splitting legal loophole (assuming your claims have any real basis).”
My defense of Obama’s silence is based on the complete lack of any facts that would cast any doubt on what he’s shown so far. All you’ve got are deliberate lies and fraud.
” Rather than admitting that Obama has a moral and ethical, never mind legal, responsibility to prove his eligibility, and that the Internet images he has thus far provided OBVIOUSLY are not sufficient (if such images wouldn’t be sufficient to get a mere passport or driver’s license, that should tell you something about their implicit trustworthiness), you fall back on a flimsy legal technicality that may or may not be true.”
Even if there was a law requiring him to show his BC to some authority, all they would do is look at the actual document and say, “Yep, he’s a natural born citizen”. You want him to be treated as illegitimate, and have to prove, beyond any shadow of doubt, that he is legitimate. Birthers simply hate and fear Obama, because he won the election.
And they’ve irretrievably poisoned their case by the extensive lies and frauds they’ve promulgated. Birthers have thrown away any credibility they had. Which was near zero to begin with.
Douglas J. Bender,
“Therefore, your argument that Obama couldn’t access the information on his long-form Birth Certificate is wrong, if that long-form still exists (as it should) in the records.”
What do you know, an actual point! Only weakness is, why would he remember the name of the attending physician? I would bet that most people have no idea who delivered them. I’d have to look it up on my birth certificate.
And would most birthers accept a letter of verification as proof? Given some of the outlandish things that they have absolute faith in, I doubt it.
Actually, looking at the website, and that “The verification process will not, however, disclose information about the vital event contained within the certificate that is unknown to and not provided by the applicant in the request.”, it looks like anyone can request a letter of verification. Why don’t you give it a try?
Douglas J. Bender,
“And if the only ‘certificate’ that he has on record is the ‘Certification of Live Birth’”.
I haven’t seen any evidence that anyone has a “Certification of Live Birth” on record with the Hawaii Dept of Health.
But why not give it a try and see what you get?
Douglas J. Bender,
“To those who stop their ears so they can’t hear, I suppose it would.”
Birthers, again. No facts, no truth, just a witch hunt.
Twitchy,
“Why not give it a try”?? Because I’m not Obama, and I wasn’t purportedly born in Hawaii, and I’m not facing dozens of lawsuits, and I’m not President, and my legitimacy is not in question.
Twitchy,
“What do you know, an actual point!”
Well, you know what they (actually, I) say: You can lead the blind to the light, but you can’t make them see. But congratulations on finally recognizing one of the opposing side’s actual points.
“Only weakness is, why would he remember the name of the attending physician?”
I don’t know. Isn’t he supposed to be a genius? In any case, as I had explicitly stated, he could simply research some physicians at the hospital at the time who could be likely “candidates” for having attended his delivery, and use their names. For that matter, he could simply run through their names, since the requirements for requesting a Letter of Verification don’t put limits on requests, nor place penalties on wrong “guesses”.
“I would bet that most people have no idea who delivered them. I’d have to look it up on my birth certificate.”
And your point is that everyone should just give up trying to find out who the attending physician was at their birth? If they don’t already know, it’s a lost cause? You sure do give up easy, when it suits you.
“And would most birthers accept a letter of verification as proof?”
More likely, apparently, than you accepting the truth about Obama.
“Given some of the outlandish things that they have absolute faith in, I doubt it.”
Given that you are a fanatical and irrational Obama supporter, it makes perfect sense that you would.
“Actually, looking at the website, and that ‘The verification process will not, however, disclose information about the vital event contained within the certificate that is unknown to and not provided by the applicant in the request’, it looks like anyone can request a letter of verification.”
Oh, absolutely. But they also provide requirements for such a request being GRANTED. Requirements, such as the following that were listed IMMEDIATELY preceding what you quoted above, that severely limit who would be granted such requests:
“An applicant/requestor must provide the information needed to 1) establish his/her direct and tangible interest in the record and 2) locate the desired record. This will normally include:
- Applicant’s name, address, and telephone number(s);
- Applicant’s relationship to the person named on the certificate;
Reason why you are requesting the certificate;
Full name(s) as listed on the certificate;
The certificate’s file number (if known);
Month, day, and year of the event; and
City or town and the island where the event occurred.
For birth certificates, also provide the full name of the father and the full maiden name of the mother.
If you are applying for a certificate ON BEHALF OF SOMEONE ELSE, you must provide an original letter signed by that person authorizing the release of their certificate to you.”
(I assume that “on behalf of someone else” would cover all cases where the information you are requesting is that regarding someone other than yourself.)
Twitchy,
“What do you know, an actual point!”
Well, you know what they (actually, I) say: You can lead the blind to the light, but you can’t make them see. But congratulations on finally recognizing one of the opposing side’s actual points.
“Only weakness is, why would he remember the name of the attending physician?”
I don’t know. Isn’t he supposed to be a genius? In any case, as I had explicitly stated, he could simply research some physicians at the hospital at the time of his birth who could be likely “candidates” for having attended his delivery, and use their names. For that matter, he could simply run through their names, since the requirements for requesting a Letter of Verification don’t put limits on requests, nor place penalties on wrong “guesses”.
“I would bet that most people have no idea who delivered them. I’d have to look it up on my birth certificate.”
And your point is that everyone should just give up trying to find out who the attending physician was at their birth? If they don’t already know, it’s a lost cause? You sure do give up easy, when it suits you.
“And would most birthers accept a letter of verification as proof?”
More likely, apparently, than you accepting the truth about Obama.
“Given some of the outlandish things that they have absolute faith in, I doubt it.”
Given that you are a fanatical and irrational Obama supporter, it makes perfect sense that you would.
“Actually, looking at the website, and that ‘The verification process will not, however, disclose information about the vital event contained within the certificate that is unknown to and not provided by the applicant in the request’, it looks like anyone can request a letter of verification.”
Oh, absolutely. But they also provide requirements for such a request being GRANTED. Requirements, such as the following that were listed IMMEDIATELY preceding what you quoted above, that severely limit who would be granted such requests:
“An applicant/requestor must provide the information needed to 1) establish his/her direct and tangible interest in the record and 2) locate the desired record. This will normally include:
- Applicant’s name, address, and telephone number(s);
- Applicant’s relationship to the person named on the certificate;
- Reason why you are requesting the certificate;
- Full name(s) as listed on the certificate;
- The certificate’s file number (if known);
- Month, day, and year of the event; and
- City or town and the island where the event occurred.
- For birth certificates, also provide the full name of the father and the full maiden name of the mother.
If you are applying for a certificate ON BEHALF OF SOMEONE ELSE, you must provide an original letter signed by that person authorizing the release of their certificate to you.”
(I assume that “on behalf of someone else” would cover all cases where the information you are requesting is that regarding someone other than yourself.)
Twitchy,
“I haven’t seen any evidence that anyone has a ‘Certification of Live Birth’ on record with the Hawaii Dept of Health.”
I don’t imagine that you’ve looked terribly hard, either.
And, come to think of it, for all those born in Hawaii OUTSIDE OF any hospital, the only record that they COULD have is a Certification of Live Birth, it would seem. And there have been plenty of such people, especially back around the time Obama was born.
Twitchy,
“Birthers, again. No facts, no truth, just a witch hunt.”
We’ve already pointed the truth out to you. You simply ignore it because you need to defend your hero, Obama. And it’s not a “witch hunt” – it’s a “truth search”. Something that Obama himself could have ended from the start, by providing the truth in the form of the information on his original birth certificate. But we all know it’s better to waste millions in taxpayers’ money fighting the revelation of one’s records, whether that be birth records or college records or Senate records. Or at least you do.
Twitchy
Where is the natural born citizen requirement?
You ever hear of something called the Constitution Of The United States?
Try reading it.
And when you are done, stop back and Douglas, Salveterra and I will explain it to you.
Twitchy,
Here’s PROOF that the Daily KOS image is a forgery:
http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/12993.htm
Will you now admit that the Daily KOS image is not genuine? Or will you persist in stating that it is genuine?
Douglas J. Bender,
“‘Why not give it a try’?? Because I’m not Obama, and I wasn’t purportedly born in Hawaii, and I’m not facing dozens of lawsuits, and I’m not President, and my legitimacy is not in question.”
And maybe you’re afraid of the real truth?
OK, scratch that last. I see the “The same eligibility requirements apply for both ceritified copies and verification letters.” Which makes no sense, but since when do legislators or bureaucrats make sense.
“In any case, as I had explicitly stated, he could simply research some physicians at the hospital at the time who could be likely “candidates” for having attended his delivery, and use their names.”
And I don’t see any point to that, either. Who is going to remember one of hundreds, or thousands, of births, particularly one that happened 48 years ago?
“And your point is that everyone should just give up trying to find out who the attending physician was at their birth?”
I really don’t see why anyone would want to know.
“More likely, apparently, than you accepting the truth about Obama.
”
Since birthers don’t seem to care about truth now, but keep inventing more lies….
“Given that you are a fanatical and irrational Obama supporter, it makes perfect sense that you would.”
“fanatical and irrational” implies a refusal to acknowledge facts. That would be birthers.
Douglas J. Bender,
“I haven’t seen any evidence that anyone has a ‘Certification of Live Birth’ on record with the Hawaii Dept of Health.”
“I don’t imagine that you’ve looked terribly hard, either.”
No, but birthers are the ones making that claim. You’d think they’d have something to back it up.
Oh, wait….
Douglas J. Bender,
“We’ve already pointed the truth out to you. You simply ignore it because you need to defend your hero, Obama. And it’s not a ‘witch hunt’ – it’s a ‘truth search’.”
But you’ve got no facts, no evidence, no reasonable doubt. It’s just that you want to believe that Obama couldn’t possibly be eligible to be President. “Make the nightmare go away, Mommy!” It’s a witch hunt. Find the scary witch and burn her at the stake.
And BO is not my hero. I didn’t vote for him, and I’m not at all sure that he isn’t making things worse. Not that I expect more from most politicians. I just don’t like liars and frauds.
Twitchy,
“And BO is not my hero. I didn’t vote for him, and I’m not at all sure that he isn’t making things worse. Not that I expect more from most politicians”.
In that case, I’ve changed my mind. I no longer think you might be Robert Gibbs. I think it’s more likely that you might be Barack Obama.
“I just don’t like liars and frauds.”
Your self-loathing must be intolerable.
carl,
Thanks, but that’s not what I said. What I said was: “So where is the law that defines ‘natural born citizen’ and the requirements for proving that you are one?” There’s nothing in the Constitution that defines what is meant by “natural born citizen”, or that sets any requirments for proving that you are one.
carl,
Thanks, but that’s not what I said. What I said was: “So where is the law that defines ‘natural born citizen’ and the requirements for proving that you are one?” There’s nothing in the Constitution that defines what is meant by “natural born citizen”, or that sets any requirements for proving that you are one.
Anthony Oresteen,
Old news. Techdude is another birther fraud. Note the date of this report: July 20, 2008. On August 23, 2008, WND said: “A separate WND investigation into Obama’s certification of live birth utilizing forgery experts also found the document to be authentic. The investigation also revealed methods used by some of the bloggers to determine the document was fake involved forgeries, in that a few bloggers added text and images to the certificate scan that weren’t originally there.”
Here’s a rebuttal to Techdude’s ‘analysis’.
Douglas J. Bender,
“I just don’t like liars and frauds.”
“Your self-loathing must be intolerable.”
My self-loathing? Sorry, I go with actual facts, not lies, transparent frauds and partisan fantasies. You’re the one who should be ashamed of themselves, but you apparently can’t be honest even with yourself.
The evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii is overwhelming.
First, there is the legal proof of the Certification of Live Birth, which Obama has posted on line and shown to BOTH FactCheck and Polifact, and which the officials in Hawaii have confirmed that they sent to him. (At this point birthers usually say “Factcheck is a liberal organization.” But it is absurd to believe that both FactCheck and Polifact could make up the comments by the officials in Hawaii or forge the Certification that is shown in great detail on FactCheck’s site.)
The Certification of Live Birth is not the original birth certificate, but it is THE official birth certificate of Hawaii now, and it is the only birth certificate that Hawaii sends out. (http://www.starbulletin.com/features/20090606_kokua_line.html)
The next allegation by the birthers is that Hawaii’s certification is also issued to people who were born outside of Hawaii. Yes, this is true, but this was NOT the case in 1961.
When Obama was born in 1961, only Hawaii-issued birth certificates could be filed in Hawaii birth certificate files. (And even today, when a child is born outside of Hawaii and receives a Hawaii birth document, that document cannot lie, so if the kid were born in Mexico, the document would read like this: “Hawaii Certification of Live Birth. Location of Birth: Mexico.”
But Obama’s birth certificate says on it: “Location of Birth: Honolulu, Hawaii.”
Could the original birth certificate in the file be a delayed birth certificate or a certification of Hawaiian birth? No because both of those require substantial delays, of several months to a year. Yet we know from the notices posted in the newspapers on the weekend after Obama’s birth (notices that were sent out by the Hawaii government and were NOT advertisements) that there was no delay in registering Obama’s birth. The newspaper notices are themselves proof. They are identical notices in both of the major newspapers of Hawaii, and they were sent out by the Department of Vital Statistics ONLY for births in Hawaii, and not for births outside of Hawaii.
Then, in addition to the proof of the Certification itself, and the confirmation that the Department sent a certification to Obama, and the notices in the newspaper, there occurred the confirmation of the two officials who looked into the file and said that there was an original birth certificate in the file. Since Hawaii did not allow foreign birth certificates to be filed in 1961, and it cannot be a delayed or Hawaiian certificate because there was no delay, the original birth certificate in the file can only be a Hawaiian birth certificate. And this was confirmed in a press interview (supplemented by the same thing in writing in an e-mail) which was done by the spokeswoman for the Department of Health of Hawaii and quoted by the Chicago Tribune (http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/11/obama_hawaaianborn_citizen_for.html)
And in addition to all that official proof that Obama was born in Hawaii, there is this witness who confirms hearing about the birth to a woman called Stanley at the time, and writing about it to her father, who also was called Stanley. (http://www.buffalonews.com/494/story/554495.html)
Against this overwhelming amount of official and witness evidence that Obama was born in Hawaii, birthers raise such things as the allegation that Obama’s sister said that he was born at a different hospital (not true, she was misquoted) or that the hospital cannot confirm (because that is the law. It cannot divulge patient information).
Or, it is often said that if there were an original birth certificate, then Obama would have shown it. But, as shown in (http://www.starbulletin.com/features/20090606_kokua_line.html), which was cited before, Hawaii now sends out only the Certification of Live Birth.
This being the case, unless Obama has a copy of the original and not lost it (and many of us do lose our birth certificate) then all that he can show is the document that Hawaii sent him, which was the certification of live birth. Still, there is nothing wrong with that. It is accepted as proof of birth in Hawaii by the US State Department for issuing passports.
The claim that Obama was born in Kenya is absurd. His Kenyan grandmother did not say that Obama was born in Kenya. She said that he was born in HAWAII. Listen to the complete tape, and you can hear her say “America, Hawaii” right after the question “Whereabouts was he born?” http://www.obamacrimes.info/Telephone_Interview_with_Sarah_Hussein_Obama_10-16-08.mp3
If it is too difficult to follow the tape, here is the complete transcript of that call. http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/obamatranscriptlulu109.pdf
The question still begs to be answered ??
Why seal all your records, unless something needs to be covered up!
Folks do your own research. There has not been one official government (state or federal) person who has come forth on record and verified that Obama was born in Hawaii and won’t either, unless required too.
They have verified only a document exist on file.
smrstrauss,
“The next allegation by the birthers is that Hawaii’s certification is also issued to people who were born outside of Hawaii. Yes, this is true, but this was NOT the case in 1961. When Obama was born in 1961, only Hawaii-issued birth certificates could be filed in Hawaii birth certificate files. (And even today, when a child is born outside of Hawaii and receives a Hawaii birth document, that document cannot lie, so if the kid were born in Mexico, the document would read like this: ‘Hawaii Certification of Live Birth. Location of Birth: Mexico.’ But Obama’s birth certificate says on it: ‘Location of Birth: Honolulu, Hawaii.’ Could the original birth certificate in the file be a delayed birth certificate or a certification of Hawaiian birth? No because both of those require substantial delays, of several months to a year.”
And where is your evidence that that was so? What is your evidence that receiving a Certification of Live birth a few days after the a child had been born outside of a hospital would take “several months to a year”? In 1961, Hawaii had only been a state for around 2 years – quite probably, there were a fair number of children born in Hawaii at the time, but outside of any hospital; for such children, the only possible “evidence” that they were born in Hawaii would have been the CLAIM of their parent or parents. There would have been no reason to delay the granting of a Certification, and there would have been great pressure to not do so, in order to avoid human error down the road, in order to avoid information overload (there was not widespread use of computers at that time), in order to help the parents (many of whom likely lived relatively far from a city or government agency), and in order to grant “certification” to the child in case it met with some urgent need.
“Yet we know from the notices posted in the newspapers on the weekend after Obama’s birth (notices that were sent out by the Hawaii government and were NOT advertisements) that there was no delay in registering Obama’s birth. The newspaper notices are themselves proof. They are identical notices in both of the major newspapers of Hawaii, and they were sent out by the Department of Vital Statistics ONLY for births in Hawaii, and not for births outside of Hawaii.”
And if Obama’s mother was almost immediately granted a Certification of Live Birth, the same would have happened. Yet it is possible that she merely CLAIMED that Obama was born in Hawaii. You have yet to prove, or even provide any evidence, that receiving a Certification would have required “substantial delays, of several months to a year”.
“Then, in addition to the proof of the Certification itself, and the confirmation that the Department sent a certification to Obama, and the notices in the newspaper, there occurred the confirmation of the two officials who looked into the file and said that there was an original birth certificate in the file. Since Hawaii did not allow foreign birth certificates to be filed in 1961, and it cannot be a delayed or Hawaiian certificate because there was no delay, the original birth certificate in the file can only be a Hawaiian birth certificate. And this was confirmed in a press interview (supplemented by the same thing in writing in an e-mail) which was done by the spokeswoman for the Department of Health of Hawaii and quoted by the Chicago Tribune.”
All they said was that it was “on file”, and did not identify of what sort it was, or any of the information on it. Your argument here depends entirely upon your unsubstantiated claim that a Hawaiian Certification of Live Birth required “substantial delays”, and that the newspaper announcements were “sent out by the Hawaiian government”. If either of those two claims are incorrect, then your argument fails. You have yet to provide evidence for either claim, that I can see.
Douglas J. Bender,
What is your evidence that anyone has received a Certification of Live Birth as a primary document, without a Certificate to serve as the primary document?
Where is your evidence that Hawaii didn’t track births when it was a territory?
And you have yet to provide evidence for any of your claims. However, the Hawaii DoH, and both papers involved, have stated that such notices came directly from the state.
Twitchy,
It doesn’t really matter, actually. Even if a Certificate were produced for each and every child in Hawaii, there would still be some children whose actual births in Hawaii (as opposed to elsewhere) could only be “confirmed” by the word of the parent or parents. And it is entirely possible that Obama was born in Kenya, then transferred by and along with his mother to Hawaii a few days later, and then his mother claimed he was born in Hawaii. If this is so, then whatever “primary document” is on file for Obama would NOT state a hospital of birth or an attending physician for Obama. This would then require STRONGER proof from Obama that he was actually born in Hawaii. If it is not so, then it would enable others to further research the facts, by attempting to research the history of the hospital which, and attending physician who, might be on record.
Where is your evidence that it did?
But I have, because most of my “claims” involve pointing out that the claims of Obama and his supporters don’t prove what they claim to prove.
Twitchy,
It doesn’t really matter, actually. Even if a Certificate were produced for each and every child in Hawaii, there would still be some children whose births in Hawaii (as opposed to how documentation or verification took place in other states, perhaps) could only be “confirmed” by the word of the parent or parents. And it is entirely possible that Obama was born in Kenya, then transferred by and along with his mother to Hawaii a few days later, and then his mother claimed he was born in Hawaii. If this is so, then whatever “primary document” is on file for Obama would NOT state a hospital of birth or an attending physician for Obama. This would then require STRONGER proof from Obama that he was actually born in Hawaii. If it is not so, then it would enable others to further research the facts, by attempting to research the history of the hospital which, and attending physician who, might be on record.
Where is your evidence that it did?
But I have, because most of my “claims” involve pointing out that the claims of Obama and his supporters don’t prove what they claim to prove.
I read that at your link. That still wouldn’t discount the possibility of a child being born in a foreign country, then “transferred” to Hawaii to be given a “primary document” of birth (whether a Birth Certificate or a Certification of Live Birth [assuming the latter could be given in lieu of a Birth Certificate as a "primary document" attesting to one's birth]).
Douglas J. Bender,
With absolutely no public record of any such trip, while there are records of every other trip made by his father to Kenya?
You’d be out of luck anyway. Do any hospitals keep those records for more than 20 or so years? Have you checked with any hospitals to see how long they keep such records? How likely is it that the attending physician would still be alive, and would remember sufficient details, after 48 years and thousands of births, to satisfy even a single birther?
And, according to CNN, the only primary document is a row in a database. They claim that all the physical records were destroyed after Hawaii computerized them in 2001.
Don’t be ridiculous. How about the statement that they included all birth records from 1908 on when they computerized birth records. Do you think that a territory has no government at all?
Which you still have not provided any evidence of.
And, of course, you have no evidence that such a thing has ever happened. Good luck making an argument like that in court.
@Everyone here
Stop by and leave your opinion/comment on today’s article:
http://freedomedium.com/2009/07/barack-obama-appoints-doctor-death-as-health-care-czar/
Capt. Richard Koch,
And just what records have been ’sealed’? All I’ve seen any evidence of is that those records are, by default, protected by privacy laws.
And there isn’t a single bit of evidence that he wasn’t born in Hawaii. OTOH, birthers have created a lot of frauds to try and ‘prove’ that he wasn’t.
NEWS …..
‘Obama’s Apparent Kenyan Birth Certificate Shown’:
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105764
‘Taitz Moves For Authentication Of Kenyan Birth Certificate’:
http://rense.com/general86/moves.htm
It sure looks REAL to me!!…Go Keyes and Orly!!
http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/blog1/?p=3583
Well, Well, Well!!!!!
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105764
It namea s DOCTOR and a HOSPITAL!
It has SIGNATURES!
Let’s see what the Hawaii LONG forms says.
Twitchy, you have to agree that the Kenyan document is authentic as there is no proof that it isn’t. Thats the same logic you apply to the Certification of Live Birth document that has been posted.
I’ll bet Obama’s lawyers are trying to find a way to NOT have the document authenticated. They do NOT want to produce the Hawaiian docment to try to disprove the Kenyan document.
This will be interesting.
Anthony, Anthony, Anthony. You need to have some faith. If we can’t trust the President of the United States, whom can we trust?
We’ll just have to wait and see what else comes out.
Well, it looks like it may be Yet Another Fraud.
Are the birthers batting 1000 for frauds?
Twitchy,
One significant difference. The Kenyan document has been submitted to a COURT for verification. President Obama’s Hawaiian documents have not.
Who’s hiding what?
I want the Hawaiian documents verified and let the chips fall where they may.
My bet is that the judge will wimp out and deny the request.
@Twitchy (and all other commenters)
Please just post URLs that you are referencing. They will automatically hyperlink when you post your comment.
We will add any extra parameters to the hyperlink if we see it necessary.
Thanks
Anthony,
And, most probably, an analysis of the paper it’s printed on will show that it was not printed in 1964. It’s a desperation move.
And Obama won’t respond. It would give the birthers legitimacy, at a time when they’re so successful.
At making all of Obama’s opponents look like wackos. Birthers are Obama’s best friends.
Perhaps it is a desperate move. But it does put the Court in a curious position.
The Court now has a raised seal birth certificate that says President Obama was born in Kenya. President Obama’s lawyers are now FORCED to respond to it. If they ignore it, they risk that the Court will stipulate that it is genuine. That would be a disaster for President Obama.
The Court very well could ask the President Obama legal team (POLT) to present a certified copy of the Hawaiian long form birth certificate to prove that the Kenyan document is forged. What will POLT do?
From a legal strategy point of view, it’s a good move. It puts the ball in POLT’s court.
Well, what do ya know? The Kenyan document was rejected by the court yesterday.
Why? Not on content, but because it was ‘improperly filed’. My guess it will be re-filed.
Agin, the court found a way to NOT deal with the substance of the issue but to use a procedural issue to avoid it.
Dear American Friends :
If court order Obama cannot be President then the Constitution say by laws that VP Joe Biden to be President . I disagreed.
For sample: when two football teams to play game. sample Ohio States VS Michigan U. . When College Commissioners found out that Michigan 5 players was caught for accepted Mafia bribed them with money to make Michigan to win or lost the game. What would you call that bribed games by players and Mafias ?
The judge and coaches and commissioners would agreed called “FORFEIT GAME.” and give Ohio State U to win the forfeit game.
Same idea with Obama VS McCain. the voters already picked Obama and McCain for the official elections of Nov.4th , 2008.
Either Biden or Palin were not pick by the voters, they were picked by McCain-Palin and Obama- Biden !!.
So that is something different argue and facts about our Constitution Laws.
Remember million of VOTERS are watching to Judge and top Government how careful they can elect new President , this is dangerous cases Judge and top Government must be very carefully to pick. McCain is right now our Officials President !.
But all of planned officers and staffs from Obama’s side right now called “DEAD!”, For McCain side he can decide if he want to have Palin for VP or else person.before get new officers and staffs.
That is more SOUNDED perfect ways about “FORFEIT” VOTINGS
LAWS.
IF IN CASE McCAIN DECLINE FOR PRESIDENT, THEN MORE LIKELY WE MUST ACCEPT TO HAVE FORMER PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH TO RETURN WHITE HOUSE FOR ONLY TEMPORARY REASONS TILL VERY SPECIAL DATE FOR JUST ONCE LIFE TIME ON JUNE, 2010 IN HISTORY ALLOWS NEW PRESIDENT AND NEW VOTERS TO DECIDE !!!.
ALL CONGRESS WHO PASSED NEW OR OLD LAWS THAT OBAMA SIGNED TO BE “VOIDED”.
ALLOW VOTERS TO PICK NEW CONGRESS MEMBERS AND NEW PRESIDENT DURING 6 MONTHS BEFORE NEW SPECIAL VOTE ON JUNE 2010.
I have only one question for you Obama defenders. Why has Obama spent over a million dollars to hide his history, including the birth certificate? Well, let me spell it out for you before you call me a birther! He invented himself!! He is a phoney!! He receive aid and scholorships as a foreign student!! He never attended Columbia, he was merely “enrolled”!! When we finally find a judge with some balls, the truth will be revealed and he will be impeached for the imposter he is. It will happen. The truth can only be hidden for a while. Get ready.
Randall,
This actually has almost nothing to do with Obama, and everything to do with wacko conspiracy theories.
What makes you think that BO has “spent over a million dollars to hide his history”?
So far, all of the available evidence says that what you believe about the subject is propaganda, a fantasy, based purely on “I want to believe”. You’ve got no facts, no evidence. Like other birthers, you’re on a witch hunt, and reality is the furthest thing from your mind.
I have only one statement. Yes it is possible to be an United States citizen without a long-form birth certificate, there are many causes that can result in this.. #1 Not being born in a hospital. (being born in a house, car, plane, train, BARN … but they said there was a birth announcement in TWO Hawaiian hospitals.. so they must surly know and that there would be “TWO BC’s” <–sarcasm LMAO. If Barrack Hussein Obama wanted to clear this mess up he could, but would rather call hip-hop artist vile names and apologize to the world on a global platform, no less, for Americas willingness in helping to feed Billions, with a B.
Where do you people come up with this stuff? What “birth announcement in TWO Hawaiian hospitals”? There were birth announcements in two Hawaiian newspapers, but I haven’t previously heard anyone say anything about announcements in two hospitals.
And most people have two birth certificates. There’s the official one issued by the state, or sometimes local government agency. Then there’s a souvenir “birth certificate” that the hospital often gives to the parents. That one’s worthless for most (all?) official purposes.
@Twitchy
Christopher made a mistake saying there were birth announcements for two different hospitals. I believe he was referring to the fact that Obama himself has acknowledged Kapi’olani Medical Center as being his place of birth when most other reporting said he was born in Queen’s Medical Center. Both medical centers are in Honolulu.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=103306
Well at least a jury will decide in a southern California court on January 26th 2010. It also shows the kenya birth certificate of Barrack Obama
http://americangrandjury.org/lucas-smith-affidavit-now-filed-with-the-us-district-court-obama-kenyan-bc